Tire issue

[ems70]

Hey all, I just my local shop mount a set of the Shinko 244s with 2.5 in front 3.0 in back. Oddly, getting what feels like an out-of-round tire bouncing feeling from the front while not under acceleration at low 20s to low 30s mph. The rims when spun look absolutely round. Had the tech take it for a spin. He said he feels it but don't think it's a big deal & is probably due to the geometry of a taller back tire than the front. Any thoughts from you all here on it? I can say I don't really want to keep running these tires as it's fatiguing to have them bounce so much. NOTE: I did air them down & back up to see if that might help. It didn't.

 

[m in sc]

thats BS. he probably didn't seat the tire correctly. lots of bikes run different sizes front to back. some mechanic there...

 

[ems70]

Thanks. I'm going to sit it back down & reseat it myself. if it still has a bounce going to see about having it balanced (elsewhere).

 

[SneakyDingo]

He said he feels it but don't think it's a big deal & is probably due to the geometry of a taller back tire than the front.

A wise old man once told me: If it separates you from the ground treat it seriously.

Here's what I'd do. You will need 4-5 small zip ties, and something to trim the zip tie like a Leatherman.
- Weigh down the back of the bike so you can rotate the front wheel
- Inspect the rim using a "poor man's truing stand": Get your two zip ties and gently zip tie them to the front fender struts so the tails are facing forward (do not trim yet). They shouldn't be so loose they fall off, but not so tight you can't rotate them.


- Rotate each zip tie until they just barely touch the top of the rim (where a bead would hook the rim). Trim as needed. They don't have to be even or the same length, they just need to touch the rim at the same place on the rim on both the left and right sides. Example given here using a bicycle but it works with the fenders as well.

- You have created a poor man's truing stand by doing this. The zip ties represent a fixed point in space relative to the center of rotation.
- Spin the wheel. Any rim imperfections will be visible relative to the zip ties. You will be able to see alignment issues (rim doesn't touch one of the zip ties evenly as you rotate it) and radial alignment aka "hops" (rim will push the zip ties up or down from the hub).
- Inspect the tire: You might need to adjust the zip ties for this, trim them more, etc. but you can use the same process to repeat the inspection process, lined up with the radial line above the bead on most tires. I'd assume you can see this visually but some people don't notice it without the guides. Rotate the zip ties to align with the "line" on the tire that follows the bead.

- Repeat the same process as you did with the rim. You're now checking the bead radial accuracy relative to the hub. This time, you're looking for the line disappearing into the rim and then reappearing, on one or both sides. That would be a sign that your tire is improperly seated. If it increases in distance (hops outwards) that could indicate tire casing damage between that line and the bead, either a manufacturing or installation defect.
- Finally, if neither of those work, place a brick under the front wheel so it just barely touches the tire as it spins and rotate it, checking for "hops" in the tire casing itself.

I've included photos for where I would be inspecting against and zip tying my fender. If you need more of a guide, something Youtubey, I can probably wrangle something up in a bit.

Also I'd seriously consider finding a new mechanic.

 

[ems70]

Thanks for the specifics. Will give this a shot today. It very much feels like when my street bike (Bonneville, also with spoked rims) needed some weights to correct a high-speed imbalance. I asked the shop manager about it & he said dirt bikes don't need balancing & they probably don't fit in the machine anyway.

Also, this is the local Honda dealer - just did the tires there as it was already coming in for its 600 mile & the shift lever replace. I won't be going back after this.

 

[SneakyDingo]

he said dirt bikes don't need balancing

Need is a strong word, and I would generally agree. Neither the weight of the tire nor the speeds the bike would go at would necessitate it. However you would still balance a dirt bike tire if you noticed it, especially at speeds as low as 30 mph. I know, because the process is to tape weights to the rim until it's balanced, and then any mechanic worth their gold would duct tape over the top of that. That's what happened on my last bike.

& they probably don't fit in the machine anyway.

I'm going to just say that this guy doesn't want your business, and honestly, I wouldn't trust a mechanic who didn't want my business. I've never heard such... I have certain Australianisms here, but poppycock is what I'll use in polite company. A Goldwing tire that would require balancing is bigger, and there's no reason why "smaller" would be a limiting factor.

Your location says LA: I know there are other Honda dealerships in your area because I was looking there a long time on Motohunt. If your bike is covered by a warranty, this would fall under Honda warranty conditions, which has transportation options included in that warranty.

As a cautionary tale, I had a similar experience getting a tire replaced in California after my local dealership screwed up. I confronted my local Suzuki dealership, they doubled down on their shoddy work that could have bucked me off, so I filed complaints with every person I could (yelp, google, etc.), and this also included the Microsoft Rider's community at the time. I had receipts for everything. That shop fired the mechanic involved, begged me to come back (I declined; one could say it was a teachable moment but it was more I needed a mechanic I could trust). Now that shop no longer exists.

 

[ems70]

@SneakyDingo - Thanks. That was it. The rim is definitely slightly out of true. I did the zip tie move on both sides of the rim. It deflects very slightly, but you can both see it & hear it rubbing the zip tie. I suspect it was already out of true when I changed the tires, but perhaps the blocks on the Shinko exacerbated the issue. I imagine after 625mi Honda will say I bent it & not do anything, so probably best to just take it to a specialty motorcycle tire shop near me.

 

[SLO]

Hey all, I just my local shop mount a set of the Shinko 244s with 2.5 in front 3.0 in back. Oddly, getting what feels like an out-of-round tire bouncing feeling from the front while not under acceleration at low 20s to low 30s mph. The rims when spun look absolutely round. Had the tech take it for a spin. He said he feels it but don't think it's a big deal & is probably due to the geometry of a taller back tire than the front. Any thoughts from you all here on it? I can say I don't really want to keep running these tires as it's fatiguing to have them bounce so much. NOTE: I did air them down & back up to see if that might help. It didn't.

I put 244s 3/0 on front and back and love them! I re-drilled front fender to raise it a sckooch, and have had no issues in gravel. Every now and then the tires will pick up a small gravel and sling them out,but it is no problem whatsoever.Handle great and much improved when hitting objects that would cause near fall ( baseball sized rocks etc.).

 

[SLO]

I put 244s 3/0 on front and back and love them! I re-drilled front fender to raise it a sckooch, and have had no issues in gravel. Every now and then the tires will pick up a small gravel and sling them out,but it is no problem whatsoever.Handle great and much improved when hitting objects that would cause near fall ( baseball sized rocks etc.).

Put some miles on em before you judge em.

 

[SLO]

A wise old man once told me: If it separates you from the ground treat it seriously.

Here's what I'd do. You will need 4-5 small zip ties, and something to trim the zip tie like a Leatherman.
- Weigh down the back of the bike so you can rotate the front wheel
- Inspect the rim using a "poor man's truing stand": Get your two zip ties and gently zip tie them to the front fender struts so the tails are facing forward (do not trim yet). They shouldn't be so loose they fall off, but not so tight you can't rotate them.
View attachment 2161

- Rotate each zip tie until they just barely touch the top of the rim (where a bead would hook the rim). Trim as needed. They don't have to be even or the same length, they just need to touch the rim at the same place on the rim on both the left and right sides. Example given here using a bicycle but it works with the fenders as well.
View attachment 2163
- You have created a poor man's truing stand by doing this. The zip ties represent a fixed point in space relative to the center of rotation.
- Spin the wheel. Any rim imperfections will be visible relative to the zip ties. You will be able to see alignment issues (rim doesn't touch one of the zip ties evenly as you rotate it) and radial alignment aka "hops" (rim will push the zip ties up or down from the hub).
- Inspect the tire: You might need to adjust the zip ties for this, trim them more, etc. but you can use the same process to repeat the inspection process, lined up with the radial line above the bead on most tires. I'd assume you can see this visually but some people don't notice it without the guides. Rotate the zip ties to align with the "line" on the tire that follows the bead.
View attachment 2162
- Repeat the same process as you did with the rim. You're now checking the bead radial accuracy relative to the hub. This time, you're looking for the line disappearing into the rim and then reappearing, on one or both sides. That would be a sign that your tire is improperly seated. If it increases in distance (hops outwards) that could indicate tire casing damage between that line and the bead, either a manufacturing or installation defect.
- Finally, if neither of those work, place a brick under the front wheel so it just barely touches the tire as it spins and rotate it, checking for "hops" in the tire casing itself.

I've included photos for where I would be inspecting against and zip tying my fender. If you need more of a guide, something Youtubey, I can probably wrangle something up in a bit.

Also I'd seriously consider finding a new mechanic.

Mine were not seated properly,and I noticed it. I let the air out ,bounced em a few times and reinflated before I put them on. It fixed it. SHINKO 244 3/0 tires

 

[SneakyDingo]

@SneakyDingo - Thanks. That was it. The rim is definitely slightly out of true. I did the zip tie move on both sides of the rim. It deflects very slightly, but you can both see it & hear it rubbing the zip tie. I suspect it was already out of true when I changed the tires, but perhaps the blocks on the Shinko exacerbated the issue. I imagine after 625mi Honda will say I bent it & not do anything, so probably best to just take it to a specialty motorcycle tire shop near me.

I used to hand build bicycle wheels not motorcycle wheels, so maybe what I think doesn't really apply here, but all spoked wheels settle a little after building. Even a good quality builder will ask you to come back and will minimize the future work, but all wheels settle. The good news is if this is actually the cause, it's a fairly straightforward fix. Someone who knows how to align spoked rims will be able to do it pretty quickly, particularly if the adjustment is small. And generally the alignment doesn't have to be THAT tight, just needs to be fairly close. It's something that does require a bit of thinking, understanding how to do it, and a talented hand (or a machine to do it for you), so I would only say tackle this yourself if you know what you're doing or willing to learn.

I'd still look closely at the bead seating if it were my problem. Like @SLO says, that for sure will present in the way you say, especially at such low speeds. To me it's also a bit of a safety risk.

 

[dmonkey]

I agree with what others have said here, wouldn't recommend going back to that shop for service! You can balance wheels on the bike itself, this is made especially easy with the center stand, and it is arguably going to be more accurate doing it yourself than having a shop do it on their machine that has seen years of abuse and where they're not as invested in the outcome of the balance as you, the owner, are.

 

[ems70]

@SneakyDingo - how much change in bead radial accuracy relative to the hub would it take to affect the ride & create that bounce at speed?
UPDATE: besides the slight deflection I get when checking the rim, that bead line does disappear below the rim for several inches before reappearing. I have taken the wheel completely off, aired it down, bounced it, reinflated, etc. No matter that I do, I cannot get an even line ("bead radial accuracy relative to the hub") to be above the rim all the way around. I've also run the tire with various levels of infaltion & the bouncing feeling happens no matter the pressure.

 

[SneakyDingo]

@SneakyDingo - how much change in bead radial accuracy relative to the hub would it take to affect the ride & create that bounce at speed?
UPDATE: besides the slight deflection I get when checking the rim, that bead line does disappear below the rim for several inches before reappearing. I have taken the wheel completely off, aired it down, bounced it, reinflated, etc. No matter that I do, I cannot get an even line ("bead radial accuracy relative to the hub") to be above the rim all the way around. I've also run the tire with various levels of infaltion & the bouncing feeling happens no matter the pressure.

No idea, but I imagine not very much. However if you're not getting an even line, try breaking the bead and remounting it yourself. Add some tire mounting lubricant to surfaces that touch so it's more slippery and then mount the tire again, no need to pull it off the rim or anything. I saw a guy break the bead on a CT110 disk rotor side up, deflating the tire and kneeling on the tire at the side farthest away from the valve stem, but it might be harder than that (probably worth throwing down a protective sheet on the ground first, he did it on a garage floor but that'd probably scratch stuff up). You might have to overinflate the tire slightly to get the bead to mount, with the risk of the tube blowing out, so have a spare tube on hand when you do this.

Tire mounting lubricant has an official compound but there are some home equivalents, like certain kinds of non-petroleum soaps and dish soap mixed with water.

 

[ems70]

No idea, but I imagine not very much. However if you're not getting an even line, try breaking the bead and remounting it yourself. Add some tire mounting lubricant to surfaces that touch so it's more slippery and then mount the tire again, no need to pull it off the rim or anything. I saw a guy break the bead on a CT110 disk rotor side up, deflating the tire and kneeling on the tire at the side farthest away from the valve stem, but it might be harder than that (probably worth throwing down a protective sheet on the ground first, he did it on a garage floor but that'd probably scratch stuff up). You might have to overinflate the tire slightly to get the bead to mount, with the risk of the tube blowing out, so have a spare tube on hand when you do this.

Tire mounting lubricant has an official compound but there are some home equivalents, like certain kinds of non-petroleum soaps and dish soap mixed with water.

I broke the bead, Inflated/deflated, bounced the tire, rode with different pressures, but couldn't get that tire to mount up with that line showing all the way around. It was the side opposite the stem & there was a definite difference to how hight the sidewalk was on the stem side. I contacted the store that sold me the tire. They asked for photos & then sent me a note that a new tire is in the post. I guess they thought it was enough of a problem too

 

[SneakyDingo]

You're doing everything I would have done. I hope that you get a good outcome from this, because otherwise I'm up a certain creek, neck deep, without a paddle if I hit the same problem!

 

[SLO]

Oh, well I did the tire change first time ever,but I had enough sense to lubricate the tire/ rim with dish soap on rag.

 

[SneakyDingo]

I usually use a squirt bottle, just because we have them, but as long as it's somewhere between bone dry and drowning, but not either of those, you should be good. When I see mechanics applying the tire lubricant, they do appear to be sponsored by said lubricant companies, or they feel like erring on the side of more is a better choice.

 

[SneakyDingo]

Hey all, I just my local shop mount a set of the Shinko 244s with 2.5 in front 3.0 in back. Oddly, getting what feels like an out-of-round tire bouncing feeling from the front while not under acceleration at low 20s to low 30s mph. The rims when spun look absolutely round. Had the tech take it for a spin. He said he feels it but don't think it's a big deal & is probably due to the geometry of a taller back tire than the front. Any thoughts from you all here on it? I can say I don't really want to keep running these tires as it's fatiguing to have them bounce so much. NOTE: I did air them down & back up to see if that might help. It didn't.

Weirdest of weird - I just had the same problem after mounting 2.5's. However since *I* was the one that installed it, anything here will be my fault. BUT I thought I'd mention it as a, "yeah, I hit that problem too".

 

[SLO]

When I put that colored dot on the tire opposite of the valve stem with 3/0 244's (second set) the difference was unreal. Faster,smoother,more responsive.I didn't know that is the heavy spot on tire. A tire person should,but,yeah. Ride On tire sealant also balances tires. Check out Fortnine on You Tube.