Battery question.

[Clancy oto]

I’ve seen the video where the CT is able to be started without the battery, with functioning lights and all. Just wondering how this happens?

On multi day camps am I doing the battery a disservice charging my electronics on days I’m not riding then kicking her into life if not enough charge to start?

Do I need a charged, functioning battery for the week or so I’m out adventuring if it goes flat?

I have a 4 meter cable which I run to the tent for usb charging as well as the switched, dash mounted usb for phone on the go.

Cheers

Clancy


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[m in sc]

it can be started with no battery. however, why not carry a battery pack for charging instead of relying on the bike? you can recharge the pack off the bike when its running.
something similar to this:

https://www.amazon.com/BioLite-Charge-PD-20/dp/B08VKMSQSS?tag=w050b-20&asc_campaign=&asc_source=&asc_refurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.wired.com%2Fgallery%2Fbest-portable-chargers-power-banks&ascsubtag=60084ece15db9ef1886a34f6&th=1

or a solar powered recharger/battery:

https://www.amazon.com/25000mAh-Hiluckey-Compatible-Smartphones-Waterproof/dp/B07FMFGGNR/ref=sr_1_6?crid=1SV2LC9HK0Q6C&keywords=solar%2Busb%2Bcharging&qid=1657024068&sprefix=solar%2Busb%2Bcharging%2Caps%2C80&sr=8-6&th=1

 

[SneakyDingo]

I’ve seen the video where the CT is able to be started without the battery, with functioning lights and all. Just wondering how this happens?

Warro's video.

On multi day camps am I doing the battery a disservice charging my electronics on days I’m not riding then kicking her into life if not enough charge to start?

Do I need a charged, functioning battery for the week or so I’m out adventuring if it goes flat?

I have a 4 meter cable which I run to the tent for usb charging as well as the switched, dash mounted usb for phone on the go.

Cheers

Clancy


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The kickstarter combined with the stator and Honda engineering provides enough power to get the essential components of the system up and running.

As @m in sc says, it's a better option to go with the rechargeable battery pack, because automotive batteries are not designed for full depth discharges repeatedly.

Another thread considers the bike has about 60W excess wattage. A 5V 2.4A USB-A spec charger running off a USB is 12W, so you should be able to get away with charging 3 USB devices with no difficulty and no need to kick start. Electrical needs will vary greatly with what you're trying to do; if you're trying to run drones, a laptop, charge your phone and GPS, I think you're going to be asking a bit much. But if you're trying to charge a phone and a GPS, no questions it can handle that.

I'm about to pull my bike apart to do a OPMID install + USB install + SAE cables to front and rear. If you're going under the panels, might as well do it all at once. You might be interested in that since it's basically trying to solve the same problem with a twist - powered Apache 4800 case on the rear + USB power up front + an extra port just in case, using SAE dongles to solve connector specific problems (12V cigarette, USB, etc.). If I find something goes wrong with this approach, I'll also document everything along the way.

 

[Clancy oto]

Thanks so much for the detailed reply guys.

I do use a battery pack for the first few days. Works well.

I have an SAE plug wired under the seat. I just plug in my 12ft SAE to SAE cable then a SAE to dual usb to the tent and I’ve got plenty of power for adventures or if others/hikers/those without a kickstart need a charge, I can supply

So I guess in summary and correct me if I’m wrong, repeated discharges to empty of this Ct125 battery will ruin it petty quick but no matter how empty and ruined the battery is I will still be able to kickstart her and get home??


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[m in sc]

unless its dead shorted, sure. but it will severely shorten the life of your battery & overwork the hell out of the charging system. remember, the charging system is to maintain a good battery, not perform necromancy.

 

[Clancy oto]

Thanks for the reply mate.
Just the answer I was looking for.

Cheers


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[SneakyDingo]

the charging system is to maintain a good battery, not perform necromancy.

Well, this is problematic. Raising a family can have a whole new meaning when necromancy is involved, especially since this bike is a magnet for old guys.



Jokes aside, this is more of a hypothetical question for @m in sc . If the battery is truly dead, I have wondered if the ECU's self adjustment persists. Like when you first get the bike, it comes with a basic safe setup that's tuned for general operations, and it refines the setup from there. The short version of what I'm questioning is that computer information would normally be stored in battery powered memory, so a dead battery would mean your bike has to "learn" every time.[1] Hardly a deal breaker, but something that might be interesting - the bike runs slower for the first 15-20 mi after being started every time when run with a completely dead battery, for example.

[1] There's a way to do this without using battery powered memory, but it's more expensive and failure prone. It also assumes that this is how the ECU learns and operates, using a feedback system, which I haven't personally verified, but is consistent with people saying it does "learn' how to run better.

 

[m in sc]

its an eprom, so its written to and stored powered or not. I know this for a fact with some ecm shenanigans i have gone thru with this bike lately, and others. ie: if battery is dead it doesnt default back to factory map.

 

[SneakyDingo]

I wasn't sure if it was volatile or EEPROM. Volatile is cheaper so I thought they might just do that instead.

 

[m in sc]

to be honest, i've never seen an ecm like that (that rewrites when powered down). doesn't make any sense, and while it s a small bike, the electronics on this bike (or any honda) aren't of a 'cheap' quality. Keihin makes the ecms just fyi.

 

[SneakyDingo]

From a design perspective, the penalty for being "powered down" isn't really that bad. 20 miles of driving later and the system is back up and running again at its previous happy point. That's only something that would happen if the battery went completely flat, allows for a fairly straightforward ECU reset process, and is cheaper from a manufacturing perspective, so there's three decent reasons to do it.

Mostly "hmm I wonder" territory, EEPROM is what I'd do if I was unconcerned about cost, but I've been working with some real thrifty b*stards of late lol...

 

[m in sc]

its going to overload the charging system. I've seen this plenty on older bikes with approx the same output & batteries that were dead. Ive seen lots of fried rectifiers and wiring over this over the past 30 years. don't do it repeatedly, its not designed for it.

Also, you are speculating and dead wrong on the ecm., ive actually pulled the ecms on this bike (and swapped them) and others, plus run one fully dead and brought it back up. it wont reset with a full drain, period.

 

[SneakyDingo]

Warro proved the bike could run without the battery at all, but beyond that it was a but unclear for how much difference there was between motorcycles and cars or other effects. It was a question based on what happens with older model Honda cars, which was why I asked the question - I know the Accord my aunty owned and the Integra I owned could be reset by pulling the fuse for 15 minutes (not sure about more modern ones).

Motorcycle and car ECU's are pretty different, and sometimes knowing that difference is useful. It makes sense there is zero difference between being disconnected long term if it's using EEPROM.

 

[Clancy oto]

Luddite question but can you remove the battery entirely and ride the bike around as normal?


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[m in sc]

clearing codes and resetting back to base tuning are different things. Different generations of technology by a long shot. (most simplified way to explain it).


About the battery. in theory, yes. However, IF you were to go that route permanently, a capacitor would need to be in place of the battery to 'soften' the blow on the system. Usually referred to as a 'battery eliminator'. i have a few bikes that run them. why does this work vs trying to recharge a dead battery all the time? the dead battery takes a lot of amperage draw to come back up. think of it as a a cup of water you are trying to fill thats in-line in a water delivery system. the bigger the cup, the more volume it takes and takes longer for the flow to reach its end destination. however, with a capacitor, it flows through it more so, and the capacitor acts as a much smaller 'cup' in line. ie something like this:

Battery Eliminator / Capacitor - Hughs Hand Built

Battery Eliminator / Capacitor For PMA or HHB CDI Equipped Motorcycles Anti Vibration Spring Mount Quad Terminals for easy install 12V Systems ONLY

www.hughshandbuilt.com