CT 125/trail Suspension upgrades

[CTExplorer]

Not the same bike but basically the same fork. I just did my Yamaha TW200 with Racetech Gold Valve Emulators. Boy oh boy what a few $$ made a massive i mean MASSIVE difference in the front. I am 6'-1" 215lb ready to crash and i can carry 30-40mpg speed in the dirt no problem. The back is stock with just a spring and way better but i ride to aggressive so will change to a Cogent soon. My new to me 23' Trail 125 will get the same or better treatment.

Hello. Wanted to see if you ever went with the Racetech emulators for the CT125? Wondering about your thoughts on performance if you did, and also hoping to find someone who's figured out what part # you would use to fit the trail so there wouldn't be as much down time if I would decide to try them instead of having to tear mine apart to figure it out. TIA

 

[CTExplorer]

Did you ever find the problem? Mine is doing the same thing.

I think I may of found the issue. I recently posted about some severe front tire "cupping" on my bike and internet searching led me to many reasons but mine is severe and one article led me to loose steering stem bearings can be part of the issue. This combined with the front end "clunk" Ive had and my ptevious thoughts that this could be the issue on another thread where owners had a front end wobble (enough that one guy actually got rid of his I believe) and me noticing if you give the slightest of right to left input on the handlebars like trying to induce a wobble it would start a slight wobble on its own (like death wobble due to loose trunion bearings in Jeeps or 4wd trucks). Coupled with how easily my steering will flop from lock to lock too many things seem to be pointing to this as a possible culprit. So I wound up tightening the steering stem bearing nut and not 100% sure yet as it got dark on me but I believe it severely reduced or eliminated the "clunk" I would get over rough objects. I'll know for sure when I get it back out in the next day or so and update but went and hit the railroad track that always makes my front end feel like it's bottoming when it's no where near a rough enough object that it should be bottoming out and was much better. Steering also seems less sloppy and twitchy. Pretty easy to do as well.

Update: thus did not resolve the front end "clunk", see post below.

 

[SneakyDingo]

So I wound up tightening the steering stem bearing nut and not 100% sure yet as it got dark on me but I believe it severely reduced or eliminated the "clunk" I would get over rough objects.

This is the big 24mm nut that is like... 88 Nm of torque right?

 

[CTExplorer]

This is the big 24mm nut that is like... 88 Nm of torque right?

I have a lot of sockets but did not have one that fit. 30mm is too big and 27mm to small. Used a adjustable wrench with a paper towel to keep from scratching it as much as I didn't want to. You have to loosen the Allen bolts that hold the outer fork tubes (by the caps where the Chimera spacers would install) then remove the big center nut and washer. Then the whole top plate assembly can be lifted enough to access the nut underneath that actually is what you have to adjust. You dont need to fully remove the top plate with handlebars etc attached, just lift it up an inch or so to access the adjuster nut. It has notches made for a spanner but I just used a brass punch and hammer on a notch to tighten ita bit. I just snugged the big nut back up as tight as I thought it should go after I was done since it really just clamps the top plate between the lower actual adjustment nut and the big nut until I get the correct socket to use a torque wrench. Picture of the top plate lifted and exposed adjustment nut.

 

[SneakyDingo]

I have a lot of sockets but did not have one that fit. 30mm is too big and 27mm to small. Used a adjustable wrench with a paper towel to keep from scratching it as much as I didn't want to. You have to loosen the Allen bolts that hold the outer fork tubes (by the caps where the Chimera spacers would install) then remove the big center nut and washer. Then the whole top plate assembly can be lifted enough to access the nut underneath that actually is what you have to adjust. You dont need to fully remove the top plate with handlebars etc attached, just lift it up an inch or so to access the adjuster nut. It has notches made for a spanner but I just used a brass punch and hammer on a notch to tighten ita bit. I just snugged the big nut back up as tight as I thought it should go after I was done since it really just clamps the top plate between the lower actual adjustment nut and the big nut until I get the correct socket to use a torque wrench. Picture of the top plate lifted and exposed adjustment nut.

Ok, now I'm REALLY glad I asked because that's not the one I thought it was. The one I was thinking of was the steering stem nut apparently, and the socket for the job you described is kind of expensive if that price is accurate. I think I'd be able to come up with a better solution given what I have on hand, but I'll add this to my list of things that I can try in the future if needed.

 

[CTExplorer]

Update: got to ride today and went straight to the notorious railroad crossing that makes my front end sound like it's self destructing and unfortunately was still experiencing the "clunk". I must of hit it in a spot last night that wasn't as abrupt but not sure it's any better (it's hard to be consistent hitting an object). I've used the words "bottoming out" but really seems more like when they repeatedly hit full extention repeatedly over washboard type obstacles is when I hear it and I do not believe it is compressing that far when it happens. Looking to try some fork spring spacers next as it seems it could be a little free play in the spring assembly and actually seems like it's more from the left fork, but hard to tell.

Tightening the stem bearing nut DID totally eliminate the inducable wobble I had before, and made the steering less twitchy so was not all for nothing and something to consider if you have either of those issues.

 

[dmonkey]

Ok, now I'm REALLY glad I asked because that's not the one I thought it was. The one I was thinking of was the steering stem nut apparently, and the socket for the job you described is kind of expensive if that price is accurate. I think I'd be able to come up with a better solution given what I have on hand, but I'll add this to my list of things that I can try in the future if needed.

The nut is: 53220-KE8-010 THREAD COMP., STEERING HEAD TOP
This tool says it's compatible with that part number: https://www.honda-classics.co.uk/shop/Tool-Steering-Stem-Headrace-Nut-HWT005-p243207738
Should end up being under $40 USD shipped to the USA. I don't own it to confirm, but based on what the listing says it should work and save some $ for anyone considering buying the tool.

Or get yourself a big socket and an angle grinder.

 

[Cardinal Direction]

Update: got to ride today and went straight to the notorious railroad crossing that makes my front end sound like it's self destructing and unfortunately was still experiencing the "clunk". I must of hit it in a spot last night that wasn't as abrupt but not sure it's any better (it's hard to be consistent hitting an object). I've used the words "bottoming out" but really seems more like when they repeatedly hit full extention repeatedly over washboard type obstacles is when I hear it and I do not believe it is compressing that far when it happens. Looking to try some fork spring spacers next as it seems it could be a little free play in the spring assembly and actually seems like it's more from the left fork, but hard to tell.

Tightening the stem bearing nut DID totally eliminate the inducable wobble I had before, and made the steering less twitchy so was not all for nothing and something to consider if you have either of those issues.

I have the same problem with the “clunk” even when the suspension isn’t bottomed out. Done it since the day I got it and the dealer of course, is useless. I’ll probably try changing the fork oil out in case it was underserved. Have you made any more progress in figuring it out?

 

[SneakyDingo]

The nut is: 53220-KE8-010 THREAD COMP., STEERING HEAD TOP
This tool says it's compatible with that part number: https://www.honda-classics.co.uk/shop/Tool-Steering-Stem-Headrace-Nut-HWT005-p243207738
Should end up being under $40 USD shipped to the USA. I don't own it to confirm, but based on what the listing says it should work and save some $ for anyone considering buying the tool.

Or get yourself a big socket and an angle grinder.

I didn't end up getting this tool yet, but I did place the order so I'm waiting for it to arrive. In the meantime, I purchased some pin spanners aka hook wrenches from Amazon ($49 for a 4 set; I have a need for all 4, but you only need 1 for this job, IIRC the smallest one), a 1/2" driver torque wrench ($40) that could go to 88 Nm because I didn't have a torque wrench that goes that high, and the only 29mm socket ($10) I could find on Amazon Prime was a 1/2" drive one. So I'm at $50 of necessary cost and **hand wavy** for the rest, either $40 or $89 depending on how you look at it.

I have the same problem with the “clunk” even when the suspension isn’t bottomed out. Done it since the day I got it and the dealer of course, is useless. I’ll probably try changing the fork oil out in case it was underserved. Have you made any more progress in figuring it out?

"Loose" is subjective to each person and their experiences. Mine is based off bicycles and bicycle headsets, which are extremally finicky for long term survival under incorrect tension if you're using a cup-and-cone instead of a sealed bearing system. The kind of finicky where 15 miles of riding on a Cane Creek headset would be enough to cause long term problems, and if you're kind of nervous about that you get used to bouncing the front wheel before you ride and being really cautious about excess play from an unexpected vibration on that bounce. I'm super, super sensitive to certain kinds of sensations because of this, one of them being loose headsets (which can be serviced mid-ride on a bicycle), so I'll say what I felt and what happened next.

When I was riding, especially over roadway that was in moderately good condition (occasional chunks taken out, cracked pavement, nothing major), I'd find that unloading the front end as I went over a slight bump would create this barely perceptible "wobble" in the steering that felt very familiar. For me, this is the exact same feeling I'd get from a bicycle headset that was going slightly out of spec, where once the load is removed slightly, the bearings aren't under enough compression to hold everything in place, and there'd be a very slight wobble in the handlebars due to it being out of tolerance. This, coupled with the clunk and the fact my bike just hit 10,000 mi made me think that there was a good chance the spec on the steerer was no longer in tolerance. In theory, the internets says you can pull on the forks and feel this out-of-tolerance movement somehow, but I tried that and I got absolutely nowhere with that test.

My point for following up on this was that last night, the 29mm socket arrived from Amazon.

• 6mm Hex key to undo the 4 bolts on the handlebar mount, torque spec 27 Nm (3-24 service manual, note tightening order), and the upper pinch bolts on the forks, torque spec 29 Nm. (3-22)
• 17mm socket to undo the fork caps, torque spec 22 Nm. (3-23)
• 29mm socket to undo the steering stem nut on the top, torque spec 88 Nm. (3-25)
• Ref: Steering Head Top Nut torque spec is to be initially tightened to 27 Nm. (3-25)

Officially what you're supposed to do is take that tool @dmonkey linked to, remove the upper triple clamp, torque it to 22 Nm and then put everything back together again. Unofficially I took my hook wrench, lifted the clamp up 3/4 of the depth of the clamp, and very carefully tightened the steering stem headrace nut. I tightened it to what I thought was roughly the correct spec and checked for handlebar flop to either side.

My expectation was that the bearings should bind very, very slightly such that the wheel will not flop over immediately if you lift the front wheel off the ground by pressing the rear wheel down to the ground (sit on the rack), tilt the front wheel slightly to the side, and then bang the seat hard with your fist. Like a couple of good whacks, sure, but that first one shouldn't be enough, it should move slightly but not flop completely over to me. Before I started, having it slightly off to the side and doing the ol' seat whack while the wheel was in the air was enough to make it flop. I tightened it until I got to that point and called it good.

This morning I rode to work, trying to hit all the undulations that would normally unload the front to generate that wobble I was familiar with. No wobble. Then I hit a couple of manhole covers that were generating a clunk before. No clunk. Looks like the problem for me at least was the tolerance was out of spec.

EDIT: Fork oil replacement for me was here if you're looking for my experience. Note the "new" parts that you're supposed to buy before you do the fork oil.

 

[Little_Thumper_Boy]

Nice, Sneaky
Honda's Trail CT125 factory parts diagram shows & describes ball bearings in the steering head.
If any decent A/M mfr offers tapered roller replacements, it might be advisable to ditch the balls (balls just don't keep adjustment and tolerate impact loads nearly as well rollers).
Checked with All Balls (good stuff IME), but don't appear to offer steering bearings yet for the Trail.
Others?

 

[Little_Thumper_Boy]

...oh, correction All Balls does indeed offer a kit for our CT's!

 

[SneakyDingo]

Checked with All Balls (good stuff IME)

Yeah, it wasn't until I went into the service manual and saw the setup that I was all, "well.... this is a design that's easily serviced anywhere in the world, but it's hardly optimal given current available technology."

There's probably an equivalent somewhere. I lack the dedication and drive to be investing myself in buying something other than the existing OEM bearings. Thanks for linking to the kit.

So here's my big complaint with this.

Spoiler: rant

I feel like Honda Las Cruces didn't do the 8k servicing correctly on my bike, I think they rushed it and probably did the "eh, pull on the forks? Bearings ok" assessment on the bike. The price reflected this but I would have honestly been ok with paying more for a job well done. "Inspect" has different meanings to different people - go in with a measurement device, or hit it with your fist and see if it moves are both inspections, but one of them is a little more consistent and reliable than the other. Or maybe they did, and something got loosened up in the process, but either way I know that my bike did not come back in what I would say was expected proper working condition after going there for the 8k service. It should not be this far out of spec, even if I was doing off roading between then and now.

I also feel if you f**k up the simple stuff then how are you going to get the harder stuff right. For example, they f**ked up my oil level pretty far out of spec, something simple enough my girlfriend could do it right with some basic instructions, and she struggles with Ikea. If you can't get the simple stuff right it makes me really hard to trust you on the more complex stuff.

 

[dmonkey]

Glad you were able to get it sorted out by tightening the nut I share your disappointment in quality of service at many dealerships. There are shops and people who I trust, and others where I've unfortunately paid to have my bike returned to me in worse condition than when I dropped it off. It's especially difficult when you are dealing with the logistics of travel, "beggars can't be choosers" as the saying goes. Whatever shop can get your bike in for service that you don't have the supplies, parts, tools, time, knowledge, or experience for is who you're stuck with in some situations.

A quick and easy way to check for that headset slop is to put the bike's front tire perpendicular to a wall, and then push the bike forward from the handelbars trying to avoid compressing the suspension.

Honda likely went with the ball bearings to manage costs. Once they've run their course, upgrading to tapered roller bearings is a good idea for longevity. Plenty of motorcycles with way more weight and power than the CT125 run ball bearings in the headset, they just don't last long. If you do go with tapered roller bearings, it will need a different torque spec and be sure to adequately pack the bearings with grease. Loose and inadequately greased steering bearings are common QA issues at assembly for some brands. A prime example of that from Italy, here are the bearing sets from my Moto Guzzi V7 that gave me notchy steering issues last year. You can see which one they dribbled some olive oil on over in Mandello del Lario, and which one was put in dry.

 

[Cardinal Direction]

My expectation was that the bearings should bind very, very slightly such that the wheel will not flop over immediately if you lift the front wheel off the ground by pressing the rear wheel down to the ground (sit on the rack), tilt the front wheel slightly to the side, and then bang the seat hard with your fist. Like a couple of good whacks, sure, but that first one shouldn't be enough, it should move slightly but not flop completely over to me. Before I started, having it slightly off to the side and doing the ol' seat whack while the wheel was in the air was enough to make it flop. I tightened it until I got to that point and called it good.

Sneaky, if you could advise in relation to this passage. So I have been getting that random clunking as well and now your little test has me a little perturbed. If I lift the front tire off the ground by adding back pressure to the rear rack, it immediately flops to the right hand side every time unless I deliberately place it to the left. Would it be safe to assume I need to tighten it up and the process you went through to do so would help?

edit: my mechanical skill level is pretty low but I can do basic stuff and venture into more difficult tasks. It’s more like I don’t know what right looks like sometimes.

 

[m in sc]

most of my bikes run ball bearings, not tapered bearings (im not a huge fan of them TBH). clean, adjust, grease them when required, then when tightening it, tighten it where there's resistance, then back it of to where it will -just- flop over under its own weight. Its pretty normal for bikes int he 1st year or 2 to need a neck bearing adjustment, as the seats will settle. this is for either tapered or roller ball bearings. fortnine did an episode comparing the 2 types.

 

[Little_Thumper_Boy]

most of my bikes run ball bearings...

Yep, most our older bikes had balls, didn't they! ... sorry ladies, couldn't resist)
OK, so yes it's a matter of preference for some - whatever you're used to, like and are comfortable with.
dmonkey's point, an issue of economics is true - no other reason for mfrs to use them really. Ball bearings for static loads should long ago have gone the way of the slot-head screw. They will do the job ok, but inferior in every way in most all instances. If by mistake someone careless or without proper knowledge (previous owner, lackie mechanic, etc) over-tightens a ball headset too much, the races brinell and you got a big 'ol obxious dentent in the steering.
If I ever gotta pull steering all apart for any reason, ball-race brgs go straight in the can and get replaced w/tapers if available. YMMV

 

[SneakyDingo]

most of my bikes run ball bearings, not tapered bearings (im not a huge fan of them TBH). clean, adjust, grease them when required, then when tightening it, tighten it where there's resistance, then back it of to where it will -just- flop over under its own weight. Its pretty normal for bikes int he 1st year or 2 to need a neck bearing adjustment, as the seats will settle. this is for either tapered or roller ball bearings. fortnine did an episode comparing the 2 types.

@Cardinal Direction this quoted description is an approximation to what I was trying to say and do. It's the goldilocks problem - not too tight, not too floppy, just right. IMO, if you feel like you're lacking the expertise but you can bribe someone with a 6 pack of beer that knows what they're doing, or if you can find someone else's bike that has a center stand and well adjusted steerer (e.g. at a motorcycle store), then you can probably use that as a way to gain experience for what's "normal" as well. But to be specific, you were the person I had in mind when I was writing up what I did and that's why I put as much effort into it as I did - if you felt it was within your ability, you could do it too.

If it just flops over, I think it's too loose, and that floppiness definitely what I was experiencing. The spec torque on the Steering Head Top Nut is 27 Nm. That's actually pretty high compared to what I was expecting to see when I looked up the value so if the nut moves easily, that'll be a pretty good indication that it was too loose. The reason I won't blanket say this will solve your problem is from experience, if left long enough the only thing that will fix the problem long term is to replace the bearings. I don't know how bad yours is, or how long it's been that way... mine's been that way for 3-4 days at most and not that many miles. So you might do this, it'll be fine for like... 1-2 days, and then go back to clunky fun.

 

[m in sc]

ive run ball bearings in necks for over 20 years. the dont wear out that fast. .02

 

[SneakyDingo]

I have the same problem with the “clunk” even when the suspension isn’t bottomed out. Done it since the day I got it and the dealer of course, is useless. I’ll probably try changing the fork oil out in case it was underserved. Have you made any more progress in figuring it out?

To me all bets are off if it's been doing this since the day of purchase, and there's at least 1000 mi on the bike.

If they were 1000 gentle, kind, loving miles of an owner who loved their bike enough to wash it regularly I'd agree, but... uh... I don't ride my bike that way, and I sure as hell don't expect others to either.

 

[Cardinal Direction]

To me all bets are off if it's been doing this since the day of purchase, and there's at least 1000 mi on the bike.

If they were 1000 gentle, kind, loving miles of an owner who loved their bike enough to wash it regularly I'd agree, but... uh... I don't ride my bike that way, and I sure as hell don't expect others to either.

They certainly haven’t been, I’m not saying, I abuse the thing but mistakes have happened. I suppose I can give it the old college try and see if it resolves my issue. The steering just feels really twitchy at low speeds and other than that and the clunking sound I haven’t noticed any problems. If you were in my position, would you just replace the bearings to be safe or just try to see if that procedure remedies the issue?