Engine Differences ? GROM/Monkey/Cub/Trail

[kballowe]

I'm trying to keep up.

I just THOUGHT that all of those "125" Honda bikes (in recent history) had the exact same engine units.
You know - economy of scale. It would make sense. Same unit, and make the mounts the same.
Make a boat load of them, and then bolt the into various different bikes.

SO, today I discover that the newer GROMs have an oil filter. A cartridge oil filter. Remove two bolts to change one.

What else is different ?

 

[m in sc]

theres quite a few differences fromt eh new ones to the old ones (grom motors). also, theres differences from the grom motors to the trail/supercub motors. you would need ot remove the auto clutch to get the oil filter to work, i did the filter cover swap on my 1st gen grom motor years ago, and you remove the end flywheel. was one, if not the MOST, popular mods to do. theres also crank shaft & transmission and throttle body differences, etc. to name a few . some things swap, some don't. cyls/heads def do swap.

 

[oldskool]

Would a person really gain enough to go through the effort and expense adding the oil filter over just using a magnetic plug and changing the oil a little more often? Less than a quart .....not much $.

 

[m in sc]

on the groms, yes, especially when modified and the rubber cam wheels started coming apart. a filter is never a bad idea, amd a lot of the motor is aluminum, piston, etc. the plug will only catch ferrous bits and whatever isnt stuck in the centrifugal spinner. at the time the takegawa covers were 260 bucks or so, also added oil capacity and the ability to run a cooler. No down side except cost and thats not much for what you get. it also eliminated the big heavy ass spinner on the crank end.

 

[kballowe]

Well, I am in "study" mode. This is my first Honda 125, and it's a Trail 125. I was surprised to learn that there's no oil filter, and the drain/refill amount is 0.7 quarts.
And now it appears that all of these engine units are not the same.

So, how about the comparison of the Trail 125 and the Cub ? Assuming same year model.

Monkey ?

 

[dmonkey]

SO, today I discover that the newer GROMs have an oil filter. A cartridge oil filter. Remove two bolts to change one.

The Honda Trail motor is based on the pre-2022 Grom motor. Some different internals (more in common with the Honda Wave 125i than any other Honda mini moto), a 2nd clutch system to make it semi-auto same as the Wave 125i and Super Cub, and different tuning and gearing that favors torque for off-road riding.

The new (2022+) Grom, Monkey, and Super Cub all have Honda's new and very different high compression 125 motor that comes with an oil filter. The Honda Trail has only received that new motor update overseas for the 2023 model year (e.g. Japan, Thailand), it's not been announced in the USA yet and is unlikely to follow the same timeline.

 

[m in sc]

hes right, 22 models as mentioned and up are different. 21-22 are sort of crossover years. 23-on will have the new configuration on all i think.

 

[bryanchurch06]

I have both 22 supercub and trail 125s and even with the limited amount of miles put on each, less than 100 miles there is a difference in the engine vibration and power output, the supercub is smoother on the pavement thru the gear changes as well. Just my experience others may disagree. Having said that I am still very happy with the trail and if I had to sell one it would be the supercub simply because of the body plastics design, much harder to carry luggage than the trail even though the supercub has the higher weight capacity. Which makes no sense to me.

 

[m in sc]

the supercub definitely tracks better on the road, no doubt 100%. the ecm on angies is different than whats on the trail, and the primary gearing is also different. they , driveline wise, just run better overall, no doubt. Kind of irritating but is what it is.

 

[bryanchurch06]

the supercub definitely tracks better on the road, no doubt 100%. the ecm on angies is different than whats on the trail, and the primary gearing is also different. they , driveline wise, just run better overall, no doubt. Kind of irritating but is what it is.

Just out of stupid curiosity, how hard would it be to swap engines? What advantages would I gain from it? Would I have for all intents and purposes a 2023 trail 125 at that point?

 

[oldskool]

 

[m in sc]

not hard at all. however, the ecm differences are part of it.

the engines are a direct bolt in swap, except one has the kicker one doesnt. which IMHO doesnt matter. IF i were to swap, id go with a 1st gen grom motor to be honest, then swap the harness and ecm. but its a lot of work and cost, but after that the possibilities are endless. OR, get a ar racer and autotune like ;the pen' did. that would be the better option w out a motor swap and in the long run, be cheaper,... but not 'cheap'.

 

[kballowe]

Do you think the new motor is response to tighter emission requirements?

 

[dmonkey]

Do you think the new motor is response to tighter emission requirements?

Yes, it is Euro 5 compliant while the previous motor is not.

 

[RustyRodder]

With the lack of 2023 news in the US, I wonder if the US wont get the 'new' model for another year or 2? Maybe leftover 2022's and carryovers using up old parts.

 

[m in sc]

euro 5 is what killed a bunch of engine designs, including my cb1100 getting discontinued. they really should do an exemption for certain vehicles, especially anything 250cc and under.

 

[dmonkey]

Sometimes it's the kick in the pants needed to make improvements to their lineup. While they're updating bikes for emissions, they're also usually being made more efficient, more performant, and they work in other changes to be competitive in the market. Some exceptions are older engine designs have been made compliant with minor updates to emission controls, mostly in the form of secondary air system, exhaust gas recirculation, or catalytic converter changes. It stinks when it's the final straw to kill production of a bike that a manufacturer isn't invested in enough to update, but it's not a surprise. They've had years to plan for it, and it has resulted in them focusing on models they want to continue or new designs they want to release. It likely pushed a 5-speed into the Grom, same as it likely pushed most of the steering and suspension changes in the GL1800 that came with the new Euro5 motor years ago. As long as they don't mess with older bikes already on the road!

 

[kballowe]

So, is the Trail model the only one with a kick start ?

 

[RustyRodder]

As of now- I don't think the Dax does?

 

[dmonkey]

The Wave 125i has the kickstarter. It's not sold in the USA, but it's one of Honda's best sellers in Southeast Asia.