Heel and Toe Shifter Advantages

[TRF90]

Heel and toe shifters form a great dividing line amongst Trail 125 riders. Do you re-mount them up one spline or down one spline? Do you get out the hacksaw to cut off the heel portion? Do you find another shifter entirely that fits both the spline and your foot size and leave the old heel and toe far behind? Or do you just learn to live with it and even, in time, begin to appreciate it?

For the record, I had intended to cut the heel portion off originally, but decided to begin by rotating the toe portion up one spline on the shift shaft. For my shoe size and riding style, the heel portion has stayed out of the way and is not bothersome when I stand. More importantly, I've come to appreciate the heel portion going up through the gears on the street. With the auto clutch, the shift throw is a bit longer than most modern bikes. That can make for a slow or even missed shift if you're a little lazy with rotating your foot. But one quick stomp with the heel, and the upshifting is smooth and immediate. The heel portion is also useful when wearing shoes you don't want to scuff. I think that was the original reason for the heel and toe shifter to start with.

I'm still a diehard toe shifter on other bikes, but I'm pretty happy now with the heel and toe on my Trail 125. What do you think?

 

[m in sc]

Im in the same boat TBH. the only time i typically use the heel part is clicking into 1st from a traffic light though. I have 3 bikes with heel toe shifters and I never even do that on the other 2 (which are both from 1967).

 

[Muskokan]

A question from a soon to be owner of a trail 125 in Canada. No experience with a semi-auto clutch. If I have to come to a stop in a higher gear. Do I just hold the break and continue downshifting to neutral or first and if so is this a smooth transition.

 

[TRF90]

A question from a soon to be owner of a trail 125 in Canada. No experience with a semi-auto clutch. If I have to come to a stop in a higher gear. Do I just hold the break and continue downshifting to neutral or first and if so is this a smooth transition.

Yes, you can roll to a stop in a higher gear and downshift before taking off again. If you choose to downshift while still rolling, it's fairly easy to do the 4–3 downshift, but you will want to do a little rev matching with the throttle if you're going into a lower gear while moving. Hey, that's part of the fun of riding a Trail 125!

 

[m in sc]

better to be moving to downshift. but you can do it. my personal rule of thumb is 1st gear: 10 mph, 2nd, 20, 3rd, 30 and 4th: 40. you'll get used to it.

 

[dmonkey]

Sandals were likely another major factor in the heel-toe shifter for the original Honda Cub in the late 1950s, and the modern Super Cub and Trail. Honda had a design goal of making a small, affordable, and approachable (not intimidating) transportation for the masses. Closest things to that at the time in Japan were import mopeds and scooters.

Downshifting goes smoother at much lower speeds than when you would upshift. I downshift 2nd to 1st at a stop, but go through the rest while moving.
The owner's manual has speed recommendations.

 

[TRF90]

Matching the revs to the rear wheel speed assists greatly with downshifts while moving. With the shifter fully depressed, the clutch is disengaged. As you return the shifter to its neutral position, add a few revs with the throttle. With some practice, the downshifts to third or second gear can become pretty seamless. In most cases, it's probably not worth doing for the 2-1 shift. On the road, just wait till you stop for that one.

 

[RayWebb1]

I very often don't downshift when slowing down to a stop, but stay in 4th and select the gear I want when I know what I need at the junction. That can mean pulling away in 2nd if still just moving or if the road is downhil, or sometimes selecting 3rd if the road suddenly opens up. I also particularly like stopping in 4th and then one clicking straight into 1st for the pull away. I'm glad you can't do that at 50mph.
My only recurring problem is revving out in 2nd or 3rd and then changing gear the wrong way (to a lower gear) because most bikes I ride are "toe up" for the next higher gear. The only way out of that is to slow the bike down enough to release the gear lever and starting again, because you can't quickly change 2 gears higher without "letting the clutch out" and screaming the engine. Anyone else do that?

 

[oldskool]

I very often don't downshift when slowing down to a stop, but stay in 4th and select the gear I want when I know what I need at the junction. That can mean pulling away in 2nd if still just moving or if the road is downhil, or sometimes selecting 3rd if the road suddenly opens up. I also particularly like stopping in 4th and then one clicking straight into 1st for the pull away. I'm glad you can't do that at 50mph.
My only recurring problem is revving out in 2nd or 3rd and then changing gear the wrong way (to a lower gear) because most bikes I ride are "toe up" for the next higher gear. The only way out of that is to slow the bike down enough to release the gear lever and starting again, because you can't quickly change 2 gears higher without "letting the clutch out" and screaming the engine. Anyone else do that?

Tempting to just use 2nd out of the gate but I was told that making a habit of that will wear the clutch out quickly. One of the gurus can shed some light on the topic....

 

[m in sc]

this has been covered to death. Not sandals, dress shoes as they were basic work transportation for the young office worker, thats what they were designed for initially. yes,the centrifugal clutch will take a beating starting off in second. the transmission, aside from the crank auto clutch, is a conventional motorcycle transmission, so whatever you do on a full size bike should be adhered to here in regards to shifting.

 

[dmonkey]

Fujisawa talked Honda into designing the Super Cub for soba delivery boys (who largely wore sandals) to use, knowing if they could sell one for every restaurant it would be enough success to also be popular with the average Japanese consumer who couldn't afford other motorcycles at the time. That set the requirements of being inexpensive, having one hand free for holding a stack of bowls which meant they had to improve the integrated gear & clutch pedal from the D-Type, narrower than motorcycles so they would be easy to maneuver through alleys, 4-stroke so they would be quiet and not smoke, and covered to conceal the engine and wiring. The noodle delivery target is what ended up with a bike suitable for the masses no matter their footwear.

 

[m in sc]

"Upwardly mobile consumers in postwar Europe typically went from a bicycle to a clip-on engine, then bought a scooter, then a bubble car, and then a small car and onwards. Fujisawa saw that a motorcycle did not fit in this pattern for the average person, and he saw an opportunity to change that."

For once, Wikipedia is actually fairly accurate. Im sorry, the lucrative 'Noodle Delivery Demographic' did not influence honda's global designs, but I'm sure benefitted from them.

Honda Super Cub - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[AZ7000']

I am wearing flip flops greater than 75% of my miles on the 90 and the 125.
My trips to Asia concur….
Why I’m wrong from sc in three, two, …

 

[m in sc]

I know people ride them in flip flops, barefoot, dont care, but it wasn't the main design intent. You do you. I like my toes too much to do that.

 

[TRF90]

Friends, I do appreciate the history lesson and the scholarly debate, but I'm curious. What do you think of your heel and toe shifter?

 

[m in sc]

If i wasn't able to rotate it up on the spline and keep my heel from hitting it unintentionally, i would have replaced it with a conventional one. But its really 100% a personal preference.

 

[AZ7000']

I like it but use it as a toe/toe, I just tap down on the rear. Certain years of the ct90 it was built to use toe/toe, the front was a down only pad as opposed to an up down knob

 

[TRF90]

I like it but use it as a toe/toe, I just tap down on the rear. Certain years of the ct90 it was built to use toe/toe, the front was a down only pad as opposed to an up down knob

Yes, I have a 1969 K1 that just has the two foot pads. More options available with the newer style shifter.

 

[dmonkey]

Don't worry, I come bearing receipts The noodle story is also on the Wikipedia page with citations, see Fujisawa's requirements for Honda.
It made it into one of their first adverts: a post card from a young soba delivery boy, written to his mother and being read by her. The tagline of "Soba-mo genki-da, Okkasan!" or "The soba is good too, mom!" which became like a slogan for Honda and quickly put sales in the thousands from noodle restaurants alone. Yes, Honda attribute the success of the Super Cub to being designed for noodle delivery, even if it would have happened without it. First year domestic sales are what opened it up for the global market. There are still restaurants in Japan that exclusively deliver by Super Cub. Honda have it on their website.

Same story of designing for noodle delivery is also told in Honda books I have, "All about CT/Hunter CUB series", "The Honda Myth: The Genius and His Wake", and "Honda Motor: The Men, the Management, the Machines". Two of those happen to be cited in the Wikipedia article.


As for thoughts on the shifter setup, easy to tap in either direction, doesn't get in the way of my boots, easy to shift the bike while walking alongside it. A downside for me personally is that 1st gear isn't at the bottom, neutral is. If it doesn't bother you, don't change it. If it does, lop it off or find a different shifter. No big deal. I have had to bend mine back a few times after hitting things and spilling the bike on single track trails. If I were to change anything, I would swap it for the fold away shifter pedal (08U72-K2E-J10) so the toe part doesn't keep bending.

 

[Cardinal Direction]

Honestly I’m just used to it. Never find myself using it unless I’m wearing super big slide on snow boots in the dear of winter.