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Limit Reached - Electric Motorcycle Range excuses

oldskool

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Dec 1, 2022
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Yeah, it's rare that I see them in my area too, which I find a bit odd since I live in a College Town and there is a Zero Dealer 10 Mins from me. Honestly, I think it's the price which keeps a lot of people away from them as I see lots of College kids zipping around on cheap electric Scooters.
Initial price and fear of replacement battery cost and just how long those batteries remain viable are the things that hold them back more than range IMO. Battery technology has come a long way in the last ten years. Who knows what we will see in the next ten.
 

oldskool

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I retired from big oil. You can guess my lean.
Fu@k electric.
I am certified oil field trash, just shy of 40 years offshore, but I don't wear blinders. Government push absolutely not. Let the technologies develop without big brother and let the cards fall where they fall. EVs may not be a fit for some or most. There is a retired fella in my subdivision that has an older Leaf with tired batteries. He uses it for his close range chore runner. He also has a big comfortable gas hawg he uses when he travels far. The money he save on fuel with his silly little leaf more than pays for his gas when he hits the road in his boat. He is happy, works for him.
 

m in sc

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petrochem isn't going anywhere soon, there's too much capital investment in it and growth of infrastructure. that being said, elec and hybrid is def going to be a big player for the 'everage citizen' doing short commutes. leaves more for us, and im ok w that.

I like dino juice so much i burn 2 types at the same time on my other bikes. I also dont give 2 shits about fuel mileage on the bikes, compared to most. 🦖

yesterday:




you can appreciate both though, doesn't have to be all or nothing. .02
 

TrailSnot

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May 16, 2023
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I rode a host of electric bikes when there was the seemingly big push a few years back. Did quite a few miles on a Brammo. Also rode the concept Harley Livewire and an Energica Ego.
If I could've justified the expense I would have one now for my commute, it's not a long commute at all and one charge would last me for quite some time, unless I took a deliberately long way home.
I would absolutely not own one for weekend pleasure, I don't want to be restricted on how far I can go or how I need to ride it when it's on "my time."
The range would absolutely be a problem then, as I experienced first hand with the Brammo when I ran out of juice 5 miles from home and needed a truck to come get me.
I liked the Harley concept with the exception of the goofy mirrors they had on there, but how in the heck did they think they were gonna sell 'em for $25k!?!
The Energica was rapid but so so so damn heavy.
Brammo was a good compromise between 'em all but they vanished through various acquisitions.

The forced narrative of electric everything being the way forward with vehicles, heat pumps etc is all bullshit IMO, lobbyists managing to line someone's pocket enough to further their corporate goals. The horrendous toll the battery mfg'ing will take on the Earth aside, if we have an infrastructure that already can't handle people's electric consumption on an extreme hot or cold day, how in the flying F is that infrastructure going to handle all the electric cars they want to push on people? For all the infrastructure bill shite we've seen touted I don't suddenly see an all new electric grid coming along. *end rant* 😆
 

SneakyDingo

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My opinion is that the current limitations seem clear and electric motorcycles are very far from competing with gas ones on price, range, or recharge rate. People who buy an electric street motorcycle are likely buying it specifically because they want an electric motorcycle to the point that they're willing to pay a lot for it and accept the limitations in favor of the EV appeal and uniqueness.

that being said, elec and hybrid is def going to be a big player for the 'everage citizen' doing short commutes. leaves more for us, and im ok w that.

you can appreciate both though, doesn't have to be all or nothing. .02

As an EUC rider, an eBike rider, a motorcyclist, and a bunch of other things according to the other drivers that sound a lot like "anker", "basshole", "gideot" which are strange American terms I've never heard of, I think this nails it for me.

It's very, very expensive for what you get. That's the biggest thing for me. With modern charging systems and adequate support - as a daily commuter / runabout? An electric moto really ticks almost all the boxes. It's generally fast, it's got the torque for the hills, it's nearly maintenance free, and it's quiet. And I know this because I have a car, a CT125 and... a 48 mph capable electric unicycle (EUC).

The big problem for me is: cold weather, fat rider. Those ratings are often given for light riders, under non-BRAAAAAAAAP behavior, of which I am neither. And the battery range is shot in cold weather. Ang from SomeGuyRides took a ZeroFX out at one point and had similar feedback; solve the range issue (e.g. swap stations for batteries, mid-ride charging) and lower the cost, and you've got something amazing.

The other problem that's specific to me? EUCs exist. If I want that level of performance, at a much more competitive price point, I can buy an EUC because I know how to ride one. A Veteran Sherman S can achieve most of the same results, with more range, for less cost, no need to license or insure it, and it is more compact for storage. I sacrifice a little acceleration and speed, but for a few thousand dollars that I'll partially recoup over time, I will accept that in the same way I accept my CT125 is not a S1000RR.
 

Daytripper

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Let the technologies develop without big brother and let the cards fall where they fall. EVs may not be a fit for some or most.
If that were the case I would not care, but they are being pushed on the mfg's, and everyone else, even mandated as small ICE machines are being outlawed in places like CA and CO. EV is being pushed as some sort of green vehicle savior, but in reality they are far worse for the environment in many cases by simply trading more big tailpipes for less and less small ones And the minerals that will need to be extracted from the earth, get ready for vastly more huge pits all over the planet. EV is a pipe dream that keeps relying on "the next 10 years" to fulfill its promise while we squander more and more resources that could actually do the environment good. I'm not saying they don't make sense in limited capacity, mostly in stop and go urban and suburban places where dynamic braking can be a game changer, but this is again another case where mandating by a certain date a one sized fits all solution simply will not work.
 

SneakyDingo

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Toyota saw it important enough to replace their not-convinced-about-EV CEO. I think that's a pretty significant statement of how important EVs are seen.

Something like 1/3 of the population - some 100 million people and change - in the USA live in high and medium density urban areas according to the last Census. It's closer to 80% if you use urban as the definition, but I'm not particularly fond of how big an area / low a density that covers. So the "stop and go" traffic that you highlight as being a game changer for urban and suburban traffic is an enormous number of people impacted, including me. I'm pushing too close to the range limit of EV motorcycles though; the battery tech needs to get slightly better, or I need to lose a lot more weight. I'm working on #2.

Also business won't do shit until you force them to. Like safe working conditions, or paying people a decent wage.



I was willing to let this thread die without commenting but I just came back from Europe and it makes a hell of a lot of sense there. Saw a ton of these available, including for short term per-minute rental. And honestly, they were great. A ton of the riding there was pretty much the kind of riding that would make Harley riders really unhappy - high maneuverability needed, narrow gaps, short distance, medium speed riding. The 60 mph version is about the same cost as the CT125. So if you had reasonable availability for charging, this becomes a really viable option.

So while walking around London I saw the possibilities of what an EV supporting infrastructure can look like because what's the use of that without infrastructure. When walking along the sidewalk, there'd be a bunch of bollards, and every second one would have a little flip out tab that you could plug a universal charger into. It wouldn't be the fastest charge in the world, but it was the most widely accepted, perfect if you were parking overnight or for the entirety of your work day, and they weren't all constantly in use either.

Behind the Super Soco TS Street Hunter was another vehicle that was great for a lot of people. Those electric bikes were faster than the buses and trains to many locations, not quite as cheap, but still very good. My commute during not-so-great time periods can be as slow as an average speed of only 22 mph, so something like this is a perfectly viable option to me.

20240510_152207944_iOS.jpg
 

m in sc

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yeah but that's less than 30% of the population in the US so as a whole, no, its doesn't make sense elsewhere over-all. Some areas, yes, and in Europe, for sure in urban areas with a solid power grid.. But the times i've been in Europe (uk, Italy, France, Germany) public transport was king.

"Toyota saw it important enough to replace their not-convinced-about-EV CEO. I think that's a pretty significant statement of how important EVs are seen."

that's corporate politics playing into shareholder returns & dictating that. Right now its financially beneficial to get incentives to develop, that wont last forever.
 

SneakyDingo

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Something like 1/3 of the population - some 100 million people and change - in the USA live in high and medium density urban areas according to the last Census. It's closer to 80% if you use urban as the definition, but I'm not particularly fond of how big an area / low a density that covers

yeah but that's less than 30% of the population in the US so as a whole

This is the same sort of thing as saying, "lots of people could bicycle to work." Yes, it's true, they could, same as the majority of trips in the USA are 2 miles or less. Does it apply to everyone? No. Would it have enormous impact if we did it? Yes. Would an EV motorcycle work for those people? Yes.

Would I buy one? No, because they're still not where they need to be for it to be a solidly good option. Similar statement; I'm in the group of people who'd actually use more CO2 to buy an EV car than to buy a ICE car, because I barely drive it. You have to do a decent amount of mileage per year to offset that, and I do less than 2k miles a year in my car.

EDIT: I think electric bicycles are a better investment than electric motorcycles. But even with those, getting servicing is pretty annoying, so that's not there yet. By 2030 though? It'll probably be pretty close to support for Shimano dynohubs, which is most bike shops. The investment cost is tiny, the adoption rate doesn't even need to be that high, ongoing costs are really low, ROI is something like 5% adoption rate, to me the biggest use cases are great are when fuel costs are highest, uses a lot of the existing infrastructure without modification...
 
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m in sc

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quote:
This is the same sort of thing as saying, "lots of people could bicycle to work."

Not remotely the same thing. I'm referring to distance, and stuff done on the way to and from work. errands, social stuff, etc. 1 all purpose vehicle that gets decent mileage will outweigh the practicality of 2, or 3. (for most). I don't see this with an electric in 2/3 of the country. Even in a suburban area, lots of commutes can be 20+ miles, then having to do all the other stuff. this is why i think a hybrid is the best way to go, much more of a 'swiss army knife' vehicle.
 

Daytripper

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So as to the EV discussion, what is often left out are the reasons why one should want one or not. Is it because of some perceived notion that because you will avoid the high gas pump prices that you will be saving money on transportation costs? Or is it more about saving the air from pollution, or from greenhouse gasses (co2 not being a pollutant). We have a neighbor with a brand new Subaru EV car, here in very rural, isolated Southeast Alaska who actually thinks she is saving money, although is puzzled why her electric bill is so high (still hasn't made the association). A lot of variables involved in whether one saves money on fuel driving EV over ICE. Most places it is a tossup, some it is more expensive to drive electric. But as more and more people make the switch, the cost of clean renewable energy, and upgrades to the grid itself that ratepayers themselves must eventually pay will make power rates soar. In the short term EV will simply create more and more quick to build NG powerplants. Eventually it will likely be nuclear but those are not popular and take years or even decades to build and they have potentially an environmental negative to them as well. Solar and wind, can pick up some demand, but due to their highly unstable output can never take up the majority of an ever increasing load as more and more EV's hit the road.

Anyway for me, I do like my E-toys. I have an E- fat tire bike that is a fun way to ride the hilly terrain for me. I even have a small E-paddle assist for a kayak. I use various small power tools that are battery powered. Where they make sense I will use them, as it should be. But I hear the argument a lot from people who say "let the people decide" and at the same time when the subjects of the government putting mandates on manufacturers to force them to stop making ICE they will often say something like "if the government doesn't push them they will never change". So that to me is not letting the people decide what is right for their needs at all.
 

dmonkey

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If that were the case I would not care, but they are being pushed on the mfg's, and everyone else, even mandated as small ICE machines are being outlawed in places like CA and CO.
You may have read some yellow journalism there as small ICE machines aren't being outlawed in CO, unlike CA. A non-profit lobby group proposed that for lawn care equipment and it caught the media's attention but it flopped.

What actually passed is that state agencies are going to be prohibited from operating low powered ICE engines in lawn care equipment on state owned land during the summer months that are prime ozone season, in counties where air quality trends are poor during those months. It's government regulating actions of government, not private citizens or businesses.
 

Daytripper

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You may have read some yellow journalism there as small ICE machines aren't being outlawed in CO, unlike CA. A non-profit lobby group proposed that for lawn care equipment and it caught the media's attention but it flopped.

What actually passed is that state agencies are going to be prohibited from operating low powered ICE engines in lawn care equipment on state owned land during the summer months that are prime ozone season, in counties where air quality trends are poor during those months. It's government regulating actions of government, not private citizens or businesses.
Thanks, I stand corrected. I should have said the State of Colorado wants to curtail the use of gas powered lawnmowers, leaf blowers, chainsaws and other hand held garden equipment. I think most of us already know how this works. It starts out very benign sounding, they never try to slam us with some big change too fast. It is a Trojan horse tho IMO. It is open ended, not clearly defined (would say a snowblower count as a hand held too?) Once things like this get passed, other things tend to get slipped in, interpreted in a way that wasn't the original intent and then built on from from there. Often eventually the manufacturers make decisions to stop selling in countries where such legislation make it difficult to comply with the changing rules.
 
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Kev250R

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Not wanting to get into the mud of the Politics of 'Going Green' or 'things they do across the pond' I will say that I think the popularity of E-bikes here is eventually going to lead to an increase in Motorcycle Riders.

In my area of So.Cal. E-Bikes have become very popular with Teenagers. Four years ago I used to only see them in the affluent hilly town on the coast where my GF lives where (because of the hills) it made sense to put your kid on one to save them from having to pedal up some rather steep hills and trails just to get to and from school.

Now though I'm seeing E-bikes all over, even in the flat not-as-affluent area where I live. I've seen some E-bikes evolve more into mini-dirtbikes to the point where my Gear-Head has had to do a double-take a couple of times to see if what looked like a gas-powered Dirt Bike actually was one or if was just an E-Bike which looks like a Mini-Moto (no pedals, just pegs, a number plate or an LED headlight, wide Knobby tires and a long, DB seat with a two or three kids crammed onto it).

In the end I think when a lot of those kids get old enough they are going to transition into gas-powered Motorcycles. They will already have the skills to ride on two-wheels at speed on a vehicle which handles and rides very much like a conventional motorcycle. But why a gas motorcycle? Because currently, (aside from Zero MC's which has a store in my town yet I see very few of on the road) there aren't any 'true' Electric MC's which are readily available that will match the customization options, performance and range (if you want to call it that) of a gas-powered MC. Those are things which the youth in my area want (heck I'm not a youth and I want that too LOL!) Case-in-point a neighbors kid in his early Twenties recently bought his first MC. It's a Kawasaki Ninja (250? Something in that range). He owned it a day before he pulled the stock exhaust off because louder=faster to some. There's no way to do that with an E-bike and that is important to some types.
 

Daytripper

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and doomed to obsolescence.
And perhaps doomed to flood the back country as abandoned vehicles when the batteries start to fail and replacements are far too expensive to replace as well as hazmat fees to "properly dispose". The batteries, and the vehicles themselves will be the liability we never saw coming. JMHO!

As we venture farther down the rabbit hole of high tech advancement, there are fewer and fewer actual solutions, and more and more unforeseen consequences.
 

dmonkey

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Even if you're not using the old or dead battery as a core toward the replacement, the battery has value. Manufacturers have programs to take them back for free (which is a ripoff), or you can sell them to a salvage yard where they resell them to specialized battery recyclers. Larger format batteries are more cost effective candidates for recycling than smaller household batteries are. It will be interesting to see how that goes as batteries get smaller, especially motorcycle ones. A lot of it definitely comes down to transport cost and opportunity cost that are going to be higher in the back country.
 
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