Honda Trail Chinese copy

[SneakyDingo]

It's a requirement in Australia, if that's what you're thinking of.

 

[SLO]

These guys beat up a Chinese Hawk dirt bike. If it's real and not staged, it seems like it handled the beating pretty good.

In the next 10 or 25 years we might see some actual quality products hitting the market

You plan on learning?Better start now. That is a complex vocabulary.

 

[SneakyDingo]

Part of quality is the ability to produce adequate documentation to go with it. Of all the things to worry about, that's the smallest of the difficulties. I used to work with people who did this for their day job; my very first office seat at my previous job was behind a guy who did this regularly as part of his work duties. This is an immensely non-issue problem. One bilingual Chinese person making quality documentation / videos for others and no one will care. For example, this is what I received to replace the motherboard of my Gotway MSX 100V electric unicycle. I feel like most of the useful parts of the Honda manual are just pictures, arrows and a number with Nm behind it.

 

[Cpd419]

I don't think ABS is a requirement, at least not in the US. I know on the Grom ABS is an optional feature and you can buy a brand-new Yamaha TW200 which has no ABS.

I think you are correct.

 

[SLO]

Part of quality is the ability to produce adequate documentation to go with it. Of all the things to worry about, that's the smallest of the difficulties. I used to work with people who did this for their day job; my very first office seat at my previous job was behind a guy who did this regularly as part of his work duties. This is an immensely non-issue problem. One bilingual Chinese person making quality documentation / videos for others and no one will care. For example, this is what I received to replace the motherboard of my Gotway MSX 100V electric unicycle. I feel like most of the useful parts of the Honda manual are just pictures, arrows and a number with Nm behind it Toasters used to be repaired, not thrown out.

 

[SLO]

Toasters used to be repaired,not thrown out. We made them.

 

[m in sc]

after having spent the better part of the last 2 weeks with my hands in an early Japanese 'throw away bike' from 1967 that was badly abused its whole existence, (just 12 years after yamaha started making motorcycles), i can tell you the quality on that is well above and beyond what the Chinese m/c makers are doing today, by a long shot. This thread keeps popping into my mind whenever i dig into that bike. still greatly impressed with how well its built. and to the point of the toaster, how repairable it is.

the mfg ethos between japanese owned companies and chinese companies is vastly different. But there will always be those who will put cost ahead of quality. And thats fine, but nuts and bolt comparisons, there really isn't one. .02

 

[Reptoid Overlords]

I wasn't advocating the Chinese bike when I posted about it. I think perhaps some are taking it as though I'm saying Chinese things are just as good as anyone else's things. Couldn't be further than the truth. I do hope they get it together. For their people's sake. China has come a long way since the 1980's. But I have 6 Chinese carburetors for my '73 CT90 and none of them will hold a tune past 40 miles.


But just as guilty as the ministry of labor in Beijing, are the western industrialists who make it happen.

 

[SneakyDingo]

the mfg ethos between japanese owned companies and chinese companies is vastly different.

Maintenance as well. In the bid to cut costs as much as possible, the ease of maintenance is often sacrificed. Looking at you, Gotway MSX, where you have to completely disassemble it to change a flat tire. Sometimes this is a good thing to increase maintenance complexity - for example, newer Mazda oil filters, where it's no longer just one piece but is two pieces and you reuse the outside, for the sake of recycling and environmental disposal - but often that level of consideration is not given.

IMO much of the Asian manufacturing has the capabilities, the equipment, and the knowledge to make the high quality products and/or knock offs; they're just not held to that bar because there's nothing holding them to that bar or in some cases showing them how to meet that bar, sometimes to the point of being extremely dangerous. When companies hold them to that bar - like Honda producing parts in Thailand, SRAM and Shimano producing $2000+ parts in China and Taiwan, AMD producing in Malaysia, etc. - the quality is generally right up there with most things we can do domestically when the books are balanced correctly. But they have to be held to that bar.

They can do it. It's just not a priority right now for them to do it.

 

[m in sc]

like a canister filter? those have been around for decades. mercedes used them a LOT.

like said, the ethos is different, they dont give a fuck, they (the chinese mfgs) just want to move units as they really have no brand identity.

MFGs building for these company's, for example, KTM in India, same thing. I'd never buy a royal enfield, ever, they don't have the quality down yet, but are getting better since brand identity for them is now (again) getting to be a thing in markets where it matters. , BUT, for example, my old KTM390 was fine. QC was overseen by the mother company in Austria and thats why i bought it even though manufactured in India. . they are held and hold themselves to different standards. that's my point.

 

[SLO]

after having spent the better part of the last 2 weeks with my hands in an early Japanese 'throw away bike' from 1967 that was badly abused its whole existence, (just 12 years after yamaha started making motorcycles), i can tell you the quality on that is well above and beyond what the Chinese m/c makers are doing today, by a long shot. This thread keeps popping into my mind whenever i dig into that bike. still greatly impressed with how well its built. and to the point of the toaster, how repairable it is.

the mfg ethos between japanese owned companies and chinese companies is vastly different. But there will always be those who will put cost ahead of quality. And thats fine, but nuts and bolt comparisons, there really isn't one. .02

It isn't anything beyond what can we market and sell to the most people at the maximum profit while utilizing the least costly methods and materials. Marketing is the number one factor in determining what is available,not what is the best value,or need for the item. There is no new technology. I am going to ride instead of attempting to fix the learned stupidity of the masses. I am much happier now that I have a motorcycle. Kinda of like when you got a big fish on the line,you forget about the shit that was living in your head rent free. It doesn't take a long ride to make a dog happy, even a short one seems to do the job!

 

[m in sc]

there are a few companies in it for the long game. Triumph, Honda, etc. some of us look for value and quality. but the majority are ok with crap or 'good enough, hence why wal-mart has proliferated the way it has. I also refuse to step foot into one if i can help it. I get it, but initially cheap stuff usually costs more in the long run.

 

[Kev250R]

Like others have said it really depends on the company and how much US oversight they provide in China. I used to have a neighbor who was an Engineer for a manufacturing company. He spent 7-10 days a month in China whenever the company he worked for were producing parts; it was a shared rotation between himself and two or three members of his team. He told me if they weren't there to 'babysit' the quality went-down noticeably.

Although, I just got burned on a set of US-Made, high-end racing brake Calipers ($200 a Caliper) for my off-road car; I got a bad one out of the box. Company offers no warranty since their parts are designed for race cars. So problems with QC are not unique to just parts which are manufactured in Asia.

 

[dmonkey]

Toasters used to be repaired,not thrown out. We made them.

I have a 1939(?) Sunbeam Model T-9 toaster that's still in use, it's the Brave Little Toaster. It holds its value same as the Honda Trail.

This all reminds me of a Terry Pratchett quote from Discworld about getting what you pay for:

The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money.
Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles.
But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.

Another option is to invest in becoming your own cobbler (or mechanic). Total cost of ownership of a Honda Trail once you get up there in the miles will be quite a bit if you were to bring it to the dealership for everything little thing and pay whatever $75+/hr rate they charge.

 

[m in sc]

Exactly.

 

[SLO]

I have a 1939(?) Sunbeam Model T-9 toaster that's still in use, it's the Brave Little Toaster. It holds its value same as the Honda Trail.

This all reminds me of a Terry Pratchett quote from Discworld about getting what you pay for:

Another option is to invest in becoming your own cobbler (or mechanic). Total cost of ownership of a Honda Trail once you get up there in the miles will be quite a bit if you were to bring it to the dealership for everything little thing and pay whatever $75+/hr rate they charge.

The price per hour is not relevant. Are they skilled,efficient,accountable,as well as fair and truthful. It is hard to work for others when you are in today's world. If you are lucky enough to find them,you will be better of to pay whatever they charge.The hassle,wait times and excuses are too much to bear.Do they store it inside? Etc. I would charge at least that much,but I wouldn't expect for others to pay for my mistakes,nor would I not keep my word. If it takes an hour and a half, that would be $ 125.00. If it is clean ,and in front of someone skilled,with proper tools and equipment,they can get a big bore and cam install done in that time. Would you pay that?

 

[SLO]

there are a few companies in it for the long game. Triumph, Honda, etc. some of us look for value and quality. but the majority are ok with crap or 'good enough, hence why wal-mart has proliferated the way it has. I also refuse to step foot into one if i can help it. I get it, but initially cheap stuff usually costs more in the long run.

Sam Walton had a son,I believe his name was John. Google him. MAC-V SOG Not pertinent,just amazing true story of special human being. Well maybe better than human.

 

[dmonkey]

The price per hour is not relevant. Are they skilled,efficient,accountable,as well as fair and truthful. It is hard to work for others when you are in today's world. If you are lucky enough to find them,you will be better of to pay whatever they charge.The hassle,wait times and excuses are too much to bear.Do they store it inside? Etc. I would charge at least that much,but I wouldn't expect for others to pay for my mistakes,nor would I not keep my word. If it takes an hour and a half, that would be $ 125.00. If it is clean ,and in front of someone skilled,with proper tools and equipment,they can get a big bore and cam install done in that time. Would you pay that?

Most shops charge book rate / flat rate / billable hours rather than actual time, so you're unlikely to find a mechanic that meets that critera and bills actual time unless they do it on the side, are friends with you, and somehow aren't booked out for months in advance. That's what incentivizes a mechanic to be competent and quick at their work, they can get 3hrs work done in 1.5 hrs and get paid for the 3 billable hours.

 

[m in sc]

I don't care about the Walton's personally. what it is now, is cheap shit for cheap people. That's fine, i get it. But i choose not to patronize them for what I have seen them do to small communities 1st hand. that's my thing, I don't expect to convince anybody, but they never see my money.

As far as shops, usually it boils down to management, hiring barely if at all skilled techs. Lack of parts inventories for even basic service items for current models, IMHO, is inexcusable. and that's where a lot of the waiting come from, even from 3-4 yrs ago. I have wrenched for money, on a professional level, for bike shops and car dealerships and private shops, most many years ago. Last shop i was at between 2 gigs for a few months (3), was an independent shop, mostly harley stuff but i did most of the japanese bikes, and i enjoyed it. I then did Saturdays only there for another 6 mos. The owner cared, and wanted quality work. that made all the difference. I also did some of the harley stuff as well.

The local dealership, when it went under new management/ownership approached me to run the service department. I asked the owner what his tech rate of pay was, and of course what my salary would be. He was surprised I asked about the tech pay, and when he answered me, I declined the jobs primarily because, and i quote 'you'll never get a tech worth a shit to work for that amount of money'. and, i was right. their service department is awful. I also wasn't going to work for what he was offering, but that was besides the point. Maybe when i retire. But most dealerships see service as a 'necessary evil'. its weird. and it certainly didn't used to be this way.

Local shops though, can be hit or miss, but we have a very good one here, and I will use him to mount tires and occasionally balance wheels, because I hate doing it. He's slam full but gets work done quicker than the dealership and does great quality work. I've actually done some side jobs for him on vintage bikes, mostly to help him out. But doing it for a paycheck isn't any fun, to me. I like my easy engineering job and do all this stuff as a hobby. Best advice is to find a local shop that actually gives a shit, usually a conversation with the shop foreman or owner tells you what you need to know.

 

[Cpd419]

Your dealership is only as good as your service department imo. I don’t use them much but if it is warranty work I will drive further for good mechanics.