Interesting read on oil

[bryanchurch06]

At the risk of opening a can of worms, here is a interesting article on break-in oil, you can come to your own conclusions about changing your initial oil to soon. Full disclosure I am not mechanically inclined, but I did stay at a holiday Inn last week

Break-In Oil Guide: What Is It/When To Use It | VP Racing

What is break-in oil for engines? It's crucial for engine rebuilds. It has higher levels of zinc (anti-wear) than traditional motor oils.

vpracingfuels.com

 

[AZ7000']

Sure, on my 1987 Samurai and after a rebuild. I believe the Honda engineers and the 2021 tolerances and specs are a bit tighter.
Vp sells gas and snake oil imo

 

[oldskool]

Well put a fork in it, our bikes are all ruined if we didn't put VP break in oil before running a single mile. More of an infomercial than a article IMHO

 

[m in sc]

i didn't bother reading the article. depending what i'm breaking in depends on what oil i use. on the trail especially after the 143 kit went on, just good quality oil. nothing special. On anything with a flat tappet cam, high zinc content oil, i like the VR1, which i have also run in the cb1100 multiple times. 2 strokes? same stuff i break in the motor with is what i run in the bike when its got miles on it. 'Break in' specific oil really only matters in flat tappet cam scenarios and certain types of rings used in certain motors. the trail doesn't really fit any of these scenarios since its a full roller motor..

 

[bryanchurch06]

I wasn't trying to sell the oil, just saying maybe the break in oil that comes in the bike should not be changed immediately. It's funny to me we buy these bike because of the legendary reliability and immediately start second guessing honda engineers.

 

[bryanchurch06]

Sure, on my 1987 Samurai and after a rebuild. I believe the Honda engineers and the 2021 tolerances and specs are a bit tighter.
Vp sells gas and snake oil imo

I am honestly confused about this, in a new engine with tight tolerance is there no need for the factory break in? Or is this just something that used to matter but no longer? You can find every instance here and youtube on 1st oil change, some change it before the 1st 50 miles others wait 400 to 600. Is it really not a mechanical issue but personal preference? I'm not being argumentative about this just amazed at the wide range of opinions. Btw looking for oil drain plug info lead to this, I found lots of posts recommending swapping to a magnetic drain plug immediately with new oil change, because of metal sludge and debris in the oil, doesn't this somewhat at least infer that during the Intial 500 tp 1000 miles there is more wear inside the engine? IMHO I'm going to follow Hondas recommended procedure on this one, err on the side of caution if you will. Thanks for your input btw.

 

[Cpd419]

I doubt any of the big four use anything but whatever they recommend for the life of the bike on the assembly line. I don’t think it’s anything special. I’m sure when they are building a new engine in the factory there is thicker stuff put on the bearings that blends to the oil and no longer serves a purpose the first time it gets started. Just my opinion.

 

[oldskool]

I was told it came with "GN4 10w-30, just keep using it. Stepping up to synthetic oil is not a good idea for such a low performance engine" I looked for break in information in the manual, it is conspicuous by its absence. If they put special break in oil that NEEDS to be left in at least 600 miles I would certainly expect that to be stated prominently in the manual.
I wasn't busting your chops and do appreciate your post. We have to do what we think is best.

 

[MisterB]

It's funny to me we buy these bike because of the legendary reliability and immediately start second guessing honda engineers.

^^^ So true! Unless you plan on living to 1000, success is nearly guaranteed by using an appropriate oil, check the level and change it regularly, and worry about other stuff.
For standard, low performance vehicles, you'd have to look pretty hard to find one that's been ruined by following that routine. (but I'm sure there will be an anecdote about a friend of a friend)
It's the folks who let it run low that will have problems over time. Leaks would be pretty obvious on our bikes but I've seen a few posts where members burned enough oil to potentially run it dry before the scheduled change.
No sight glass for us, so get used to the finest thread oil fill plug. Would be overkill to check before every ride but certainly worth working into a schedule that would include some other aspects of the bike.

Speaking of overkill, I bought a cheap dogbone style metric wrench from HF, I think it has eight metric 6-point sockets on it, and go around and check the exposed nuts and bolts on the Trail and Super Cub. Not torquing to spec, just checking that they're tight. I'm on the heavy side so I'd rather be cautious than dead or injured. Probably only need 2 wrenches for that but I bought that dogbone...lol.

 

[m in sc]

im not sure how many of you have ever actually BEEN in an engine assembly plant, ( I have been in quite a few) or fully rebuilt, block up, any engines, but -most- of what you see on the plugs in these threads is swarf from assembly, NOT items wearing in. there is a *tiny* amount of color from the rings seating and the clutch plates wearing in. If I rebuild a motor, from scratch, by hand, with all new parts and anything like I've seen on the magnetic drain plug came out like i've seen on here in the 'plug' threads, I'd tear the motor down. they zip in fasteners with power tools really quickly, all new threads and there is some discharge from this, and it gets into the cases. also flashing from new parts, etc... get on youtube and look at vids of people breaking in motors, then cutting the oil filter apart to look at the pleats to check the contamination. while leaving the break in oil is fine, as these particles really aren't going to get back into the oiling system and circulate.... changing the break in oil early also does no harm and removes the big chunkies from factory assembly.

i swear i had -zero- swarf on this, but i also chased every thread and unloaded a few cans of brake clean on it before i started assembly., after i deburred the block, etc. the -only- coloring i saw was a slight silky grey from the rings seating & the moly lube from the cam lobes. the factory DOES NOT take this much care mass producing a low cost motor like we see in the grom, trail monkey, etc. of that i can assure you. and, it doesnt matter.

want to see a real horror show that doesn't mean squat? go to the briggs v-twin engine plant in Alabama where they assemble with self tapping screws in the motor. Been there, saw it 1st hand on the line when I worked at Desoutter.

 

[bryanchurch06]

I was told it came with "GN4 10w-30, just keep using it. Stepping up to synthetic oil is not a good idea for such a low performance engine" I looked for break in information in the manual, it is conspicuous by its absence. If they put special break in oil that NEEDS to be left in at least 600 miles I would certainly expect that to be stated prominently in the manual.
I wasn't busting your chops and do appreciate your post. We have to do what we think is best.

I didn't take it that way, I have the same issue with my toyota truck btw, if you follow service guidelines you will spend thousands a year maintaining it, I had a mechanic tell me the best way to keep it running was to keep it out of the dealership, there is some truth in that I think. Still in 40 some years of motorcycle ownership this is the most debated bike worldwide I've owned.

 

[MisterB]

-most- of what you see on the plugs in these threads is swarf from assembly,

DOH! Thank you for this! I made knifes in a production plant for 24 years, have cleaned thousands of pounds of swarf from coolant tanks and didn't even consider this when I saw the blob of stuff on my mag plug! sheesh.

If the word swarf is new to anyone; it's the byproduct of wet grinding metal. It's not quite metal dust, but contains it and bits of abrasive from the wheel breaking down. There is a weird transformation that occurs between the metal that's being ground off and the coolant and high heat, etc. The swarf that floats is kinda mushy and like heavy foam, the heavier stuff can settle to the bottom. A handful of it will do what a Scotchbrite pad or fine steel wool can do depending on the metal you're grinding. (some of that may be wrong, it's just what I speculate after handling it for so long). Swarf will cover every surface exposed to coolant during any grinding and it would be easy to miss some during cleanup in corners or threaded holes. I'll see if I can dig up a photo of it from my old job.
OK, I found something on Wikipedia and it looks like they refer to swarf as pretty much anything removed during machining, my experience is from surface, bevel, and form grinding. Engine and components likely encounter every type of machining so expect some possible debris from all processes. That would explain that variety I found on my plug.

Magnetic drain plug

I have seen magnetic drain plugs from $7 to $35, does it matter what I get?

hondatrail125.com

 

[bryanchurch06]

im not sure how many of you have ever actually BEEN in an engine assembly plant, ( I have been in quite a few) or fully rebuilt, block up, any engines, but -most- of what you see on the plugs in these threads is swarf from assembly, NOT items wearing in. there is a *tiny* amount of color from the rings seating and the clutch plates wearing in. If I rebuild a motor, from scratch, by hand, with all new parts and anything like I've seen on the magnetic drain plug came out like i've seen on here in the 'plug' threads, I'd tear the motor down. they zip in fasteners with power tools really quickly, all new threads and there is some discharge from this, and it gets into the cases. also flashing from new parts, etc... get on youtube and look at vids of people breaking in motors, then cutting the oil filter apart to look at the pleats to check the contamination. while leaving the break in oil is fine, as these particles really aren't going to get back into the oiling system and circulate.... changing the break in oil early also does no harm and removes the big chunkies from factory assembly.

i swear i had -zero- swarf on this, but i also chased every thread and unloaded a few cans of brake clean on it before i started assembly., after i deburred the block, etc. the -only- coloring i saw was a slight silky grey from the rings seating & the moly lube from the cam lobes. the factory DOES NOT take this much care mass producing a low cost motor like we see in the grom, trail monkey, etc. of that i can assure you. and, it doesnt matter.

want to see a real horror show that doesn't mean squat? go to the briggs v-twin engine plant in Alabama where they assemble with self tapping screws in the motor. Been there, saw it 1st hand on the line when I worked at Desoutter.

Thanks that explains why some people reported clean magnet plugs after the 3rd oil change? Small engine never creates enough stress to cause significant wear and tear to create metal debris after cleaning out initial build debris? It's all witchcraft to me brother if you really think about it.

 

[bryanchurch06]

DOH! Thank you for this! I made knifes in a production plant for 24 years, have cleaned thousands of pounds of swarf from coolant tanks and didn't even consider this when I saw the blob of stuff on my mag plug! sheesh.

If the word swarf is new to anyone; it's the byproduct of wet grinding metal. It's not quite metal dust, but contains it and bits of abrasive from the wheel breaking down. There is a weird transformation that occurs between the metal that's being ground off and the coolant and high heat, etc. The swarf that floats is kinda mushy and like heavy foam, the heavier stuff can settle to the bottom. A handful of it will do what a Scotchbrite pad or fine steel wool can do depending on the metal you're grinding. (some of that may be wrong, it's just what I speculate after handling it for so long). Swarf will cover every surface exposed to coolant during any grinding and it would be easy to miss some during cleanup in corners or threaded holes. I'll see if I can dig up a photo of it from my old job.
OK, I found something on Wikipedia and it looks like they refer to swarf as pretty much anything removed during machining, my experience is from surface, bevel, and form grinding. Engine and components likely encounter every type of machining so expect some possible debris from all processes. That would explain that variety I found on my plug.

Magnetic drain plug

I have seen magnetic drain plugs from $7 to $35, does it matter what I get?

hondatrail125.com

Very cool, I had the opportunity to apprentice with Paul Fox in 1991 in Hickory NC, at the time Paul was one of the top knife makers in the world, I learned a lot about hand mating and finishing metal parts. Lucky enough to meet a lot of the top guys at blade show. Ed Fowler was one of my favorites, went to his ranch in WY several times.

 

[MisterB]

From long ago, swarf from wet grinders dumped into ~4'x5' portable dumpster. Sorry for the lousy photo, it was a loooong time ago. During wet grinding this stuff gets everywhere.


edit. Sorry to get so excited about swarf. Due to it's potentially abrasive nature it certainly seems like the ol' mag plug is a good idea at the time of purchase.
OTOH the wear may not be sufficient if you follow the recommended change schedule.
I think the only right answer is to ride it with oil in it and have a blast.

 

[dmonkey]

Machinery, Materials, Methods, Measurement, Manpower, and Mother nature introduce some interesting built-in contaminants other than just machining swarf in a new engine. Ryan from FortNine has a video finding "cloth fibers, sand from molds, plastic from packaging" etc in the oil of various new motorcycles. You can be sure other contaminants such as abrasives and polishing compound are also present.

Contamination focus often goes to oil, but if you're concerned about ring wear, airborne contaminants are well documented as the primary factor for that. I had posted a warning about a stainless mesh air filter sold for the CT125 on here before, great way to protect your engine is to regularly check/replace/clean the air filter and not use something that is going to let hard materials like sand into the combustion chamber!

 

[AZ7000']

I am honestly confused about this, in a new engine with tight tolerance is there no need for the factory break in? Or is this just something that used to matter but no longer?

My understanding is in the old days tolerances were close??? Now they are tight, no need to score/wear the rings and pistons to match. With efficiency, mileage and power motors are better. A 1.6 asian motor may run forever with jiffy lube every 10k miles. A 1987 1.3l pushing 4 wheels and freshly rebuilt with oem/japanese parts may benefit from high zinc oil.

I would bet @m in sc could explain it better...

 

[m in sc]

iron bore is an iron bore, whether its 75 year old or 7 days old. rings still nee dot seat, but...materials NOW are different as is piston materials. however, to az's point, babbit or 'plain' bearing motors need to break in differently than a roller motor. also, machining tolerances are better as are castings and balance. thats a massive oversimplification.

 

[bryanchurch06]

iron bore is an iron bore, whether its 75 year old or 7 days old. rings still nee dot seat, but...materials NOW are different as is piston materials. however, to az's point, babbit or 'plain' bearing motors need to break in differently than a roller motor. also, machining tolerances are better as are castings and balance. thats a massive oversimplification.

I apologize in advance for my ignorance, when you say roller motor what are you referring to? Also I hear many references about how bomb proof the old ct90 and 70s were, what engine were they using? I am embarrassed to admit that even though I have many years riding I always had someone else who worked on my bike if needed, I was always busy with other things and just wanted to crank it and go, now for the first time I have the time and interest to maintain my own bikes and the amount and difference of information Wil crash a small brain like mine

 

[m in sc]

ok. see the pic of my motor up a few posts? the crank and rods run on flat bearings, and the cam shaft is a flat tappet style. the CT and others use caged roller bearings on the cranks, needle bearings, etc, rollers on the rocker arms on the cam lobes, etc. these are all wear areas on older motors that newer motors have designed out. the old CT motor is overbuilt like this as well