QuantiQualification
Active member
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2023
- Messages
- 168
Honda Trail 125 Forum
Welcome to the Honda Trail 125 Forum! We are an enthusiast forum for the Trail 125, Hunter Cub, CT125 or whatever it's called in your country. Feel free to join up and help us build an information resources for this motorcycle. Register a free account today to become a member. Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
Straight Talk about Torque
- Thread starter QuantiQualification
- Start date
Fishwishin
Active member
Most useful thing I have seen all day! 
Do not use anti-seize on NGK plugs. Or if you do, which they claim isn't necessary, decrease the torque value to compensate for it.
Anti-seize on spark plugs is a holdover of people doing the same things they learned decades ago, or teaching others to do those things, while the products have mostly changed and no longer require it. If you're not running an old style or model of unplated sparkplug (probably new-old-stock) in an aluminum head, which is the issue it was mostly used to address, then you probably don't need it. Check the manufacturer recommendations.
ngksparkplugs.com
Anti-seize on spark plugs is a holdover of people doing the same things they learned decades ago, or teaching others to do those things, while the products have mostly changed and no longer require it. If you're not running an old style or model of unplated sparkplug (probably new-old-stock) in an aluminum head, which is the issue it was mostly used to address, then you probably don't need it. Check the manufacturer recommendations.
5 Things You Should Know About Spark Plugs - NGK Spark Plugs
The five things you should know about spark plugs include information on anti-seize, corona stain, gapping fine wire, torque and copper spark plugs.
ngksparkplugs.com
Last edited:
QuantiQualification
Active member
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2023
- Messages
- 168
Thank you!Most useful thing I have seen all day!
QuantiQualification
Active member
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2023
- Messages
- 168
That is amazing information @dmonkey. I did not know the technology had changed for NGK spark plugs. I will definitely post that information in the video's description and see if I can edit the video to remove the anti-seize portion. Off-hand, do you know if other brands of spark plug also not require anti-seize? If you don't mind, I might even do a video around just that topic.Do not use anti-seize on NGK plugs. Or if you do, which they claim isn't necessary, decrease the torque value to compensate for it.
Anti-seize on spark plugs is a holdover of people doing the same things they learned decades ago, or teaching others to do those things, while the products have mostly changed and no longer require it. If you're not running an old style or model of unplated sparkplug (probably new-old-stock) in an aluminum head, which is the issue it was mostly used to address, then you probably don't need it. Check the manufacturer recommendations.
5 Things You Should Know About Spark Plugs - NGK Spark Plugs
The five things you should know about spark plugs include information on anti-seize, corona stain, gapping fine wire, torque and copper spark plugs.
Last edited:
m in sc
Well-known member
i haven't used a torque wrench on a spark plug in decades. seat it, and crush the washer.
Most other brands also commonly use plating where anti-seize is not necessary. It's not always brand wide, it could vary by the plug. Plated plugs usually have shiny threads, unplated plugs have matte silver or black threads. If you want to be sure can always search for the info from the manufacturer or contact them. Anything sold new by NGK in the past few decades has likely been plated.
Personally, I use a torque wrench when one is available. Too tight and you risk stripping the threads, too loose and you risk an air leak that will run it lean which can burn a valve or melt a piston. Unfortunately both of those scenarios really happen. If you trust your muscle memory as a hand torque meter or the feedback felt through a wrench that's great, if not then may as well take the time to grab the right tool for the job and tighten it to spec.
Personally, I use a torque wrench when one is available. Too tight and you risk stripping the threads, too loose and you risk an air leak that will run it lean which can burn a valve or melt a piston. Unfortunately both of those scenarios really happen. If you trust your muscle memory as a hand torque meter or the feedback felt through a wrench that's great, if not then may as well take the time to grab the right tool for the job and tighten it to spec.
m in sc
Well-known member
thats hilarious. 
C'mon guys, nth degreeing spark plug torque is fkn ridiculous.
I also personally know a lot of racers that use copper anti seize on their vintage 2 stroke motors that they pull the plugs out of 10 times on a race weekend. and these are custom cut heads that arent easily replaceable.
If you cant feel a sparkplug is tight after you've done it a few times, maintenance might not be your thing.
I agree, its useful info to have and absolutely deserves a mention... but the reality of it is, not something you need to really worry about unless you're a ham-fisted oaf.
C'mon guys, nth degreeing spark plug torque is fkn ridiculous.I also personally know a lot of racers that use copper anti seize on their vintage 2 stroke motors that they pull the plugs out of 10 times on a race weekend. and these are custom cut heads that arent easily replaceable.
If you cant feel a sparkplug is tight after you've done it a few times, maintenance might not be your thing.
I agree, its useful info to have and absolutely deserves a mention... but the reality of it is, not something you need to really worry about unless you're a ham-fisted oaf.
Fishwishin
Active member
Yeah, kinda my problem
QuantiQualification
Active member
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2023
- Messages
- 168
@m in sc I mostly agree with you but I do make these videos for a relatively broad audience. I can't dictate what experience the viewer may or may not have. Good point on multiple pulling of plugs. I am certain the manufacturer's coating is good for at least the first insertion . . . but the tenth? I have owned and fixed up 50+ vehicles and I do believe that the Honda Trail 125 is one of the very few I have put a plug in using a torque wrench. That being the case, I have seen people really crank a spark plug in and also have seen spark plugs ejected because they weren't! Torque wrench definitely will solve this.thats hilarious.
I also personally know a lot of racers that use copper anti seize on their vintage 2 stroke motors that they pull the plugs out of 10 times on a race weekend. and these are custom cut heads that arent easily replaceable.
If you cant feel a sparkplug is tight after you've done it a few times, maintenance might not be your thing.
I agree, its useful info to have and absolutely deserves a mention... but the reality of it is, not something you need to really worry about unless you're a ham-fisted oaf.
m in sc
Well-known member
Its a learned feel for sure. i mean if you're pulling a plug 1 time every 3-6 mos, ever, then i def get breaking out a torque wrench.
fwiw, if you think the spark plug on this is small, the ones for the 4v heads have an 8mm thread. its ridiculously small.
at an ahrma race probably 15 years ago, one of the guys running formula RD forgot to tighten a plug and it rattled and ripped the threads out, he finished the race (didnt seize either), and between the races didnt have a spare head ready, so we jammed a 2x4 under the upper frame rail to compress the spark plug lead down to keep the plug in the head. tech made us zip-tie the 2x4 chunk to the rail so it wouldn't fall out. and yes, he won the next race. lol. just a fun story relating to spark plugs.
fwiw, if you think the spark plug on this is small, the ones for the 4v heads have an 8mm thread. its ridiculously small.
at an ahrma race probably 15 years ago, one of the guys running formula RD forgot to tighten a plug and it rattled and ripped the threads out, he finished the race (didnt seize either), and between the races didnt have a spare head ready, so we jammed a 2x4 under the upper frame rail to compress the spark plug lead down to keep the plug in the head. tech made us zip-tie the 2x4 chunk to the rail so it wouldn't fall out.
and yes, he won the next race. lol. just a fun story relating to spark plugs.Oh boy, this has gone oil thread! lol
You're not alone in having applied anti-seize to an NGK plug. If it were a bigger problem than it is they'd likely print it on the box, but people do it all the time. It works until it doesn't, which is what they're warning of. If you're informed on the intended use of the spark plug you can make an educated decision to reduce the risk of overtightening. Like if you're going to apply anti-seize when it's not called for, you can reduce how much you tighten it to compensate for that.
For anyone who hasn't followed along Parker's 2-up ride, spark plug threads were a likely cause of failure for the original top end on his Honda Trail 125.
www.advrider.com
Again, if doing it by feel works for you that's great, if not then may as well use the right tool for the job and have a measurement of the torque rather than a guess at it. If you already have the tool may as well get your money's worth out of it. Sensory perception has a tendency to degrade with age and health. I have nerve damage where I'm more inclined to use a torque wrench or a thermometer than others, but even before that if a manufacturer listed a torque spec for a specific item and I had one accessible I'd use it.
I often reuse spark plugs and I'm sure many people do, but after a dozen removals I'd rather spend the few bucks to replace it and have a fresh washer ("triple-gasket" on the NGKs) and threads. $6 + tax for the CPR7EA-9 at my local auto parts store and online.
Like most other things spark plugs have had material and design advancements over the years where what worked before still works given the same or similar conditions, but what's newer can work better or address more issues. Anti-seize plating is more common than not these days. OEM spark plugs on the CBR1000RR Fireblade are premium and newer tech "laser" Iridium which means the spark is more concentrated ("laser") and the electrode material is harder and has a high melting point. That doesn't result in more power when new, but it will not degrade as quickly as a copper or platinum plug. You end up with a greatly increased recommended maintenance interval for those spark plugs (e.g. inspect at 16k, replace at 32k) which is a selling point to consumers because maintenance intervals are longer, and it's a relief to anyone who works on vehicles where you feel like you're taking half the vehicle apart just to get to the spark plugs.
You're not alone in having applied anti-seize to an NGK plug. If it were a bigger problem than it is they'd likely print it on the box, but people do it all the time. It works until it doesn't, which is what they're warning of. If you're informed on the intended use of the spark plug you can make an educated decision to reduce the risk of overtightening. Like if you're going to apply anti-seize when it's not called for, you can reduce how much you tighten it to compensate for that.
For anyone who hasn't followed along Parker's 2-up ride, spark plug threads were a likely cause of failure for the original top end on his Honda Trail 125.
Alaska, 2 up, “on that thing!?”
And just like that, Lt Dan is being refreshened. Parker is a great mechanic. There's not much he can't do. If Lt Dan is to live, Parker will get him...
www.advrider.com
Again, if doing it by feel works for you that's great, if not then may as well use the right tool for the job and have a measurement of the torque rather than a guess at it. If you already have the tool may as well get your money's worth out of it. Sensory perception has a tendency to degrade with age and health. I have nerve damage where I'm more inclined to use a torque wrench or a thermometer than others, but even before that if a manufacturer listed a torque spec for a specific item and I had one accessible I'd use it.
I often reuse spark plugs and I'm sure many people do, but after a dozen removals I'd rather spend the few bucks to replace it and have a fresh washer ("triple-gasket" on the NGKs) and threads. $6 + tax for the CPR7EA-9 at my local auto parts store and online.
Like most other things spark plugs have had material and design advancements over the years where what worked before still works given the same or similar conditions, but what's newer can work better or address more issues. Anti-seize plating is more common than not these days. OEM spark plugs on the CBR1000RR Fireblade are premium and newer tech "laser" Iridium which means the spark is more concentrated ("laser") and the electrode material is harder and has a high melting point. That doesn't result in more power when new, but it will not degrade as quickly as a copper or platinum plug. You end up with a greatly increased recommended maintenance interval for those spark plugs (e.g. inspect at 16k, replace at 32k) which is a selling point to consumers because maintenance intervals are longer, and it's a relief to anyone who works on vehicles where you feel like you're taking half the vehicle apart just to get to the spark plugs.
m in sc
Well-known member
yeah.. lets see you throw a torque wrench on some spark plugs in modern trucks and cars in the engine bay and get back to me. lol. wont fit on all of them, usually. there's academic, then there's practical & real world. I was a dealer mechanic back from the very late 80s into the mid 90s at an import & domestic auto dealerships, and have been in a few modern engine bays as well.....it ain't (practically) happening as the norm.
platinum plugs were introduced mainstream when they started speccing 100k tune up intervals in some cars and trucks. they don't foul as fast and yes, don't erode as fast. I run them in my old 2 strokes since they are in a much harsher environment than most other motors, and i get literally years out of them w out changing them. (they won't foul plugs if they are tuned correctly).
Of course they have to give a spec, but this is just brainfucking it to death on spark plugs. My point is, those who aren't familiar with doing this, this is instilling unnecessary fear into them putting in something as simple as a spark plug, and it's completely silly IMHO.
Do i use torque wrenches where it matters? absolutely. I have a very high end Desoutter DWT, a clicker 3/8 snap-on, a central tools in-lbs one and an old school beam style craftsman (for really big clunky stuff) I use all fairly regularly. So, it's not that I just hip-shoot everything.
To that point,when i worked at Desoutter/CP 10 yrs ago, we sold/installed/designed the nutrunners for installing the plugs in some engine plants. there was a seat torque (very low for just touching the crush washer) then a final ANGLE measurement for assembly at the engine plants. IF i remember correctly, the Nissan plant in Decherd, TN was running 10Nm then 260? degrees for final assembly. (or thereabouts). its been a while but that's just the reality of it. and of course, this was out of the car.
Is the info technically accurate up top? sure. But c'mon.
wont fit on all of them, usually. there's academic, then there's practical & real world. I was a dealer mechanic back from the very late 80s into the mid 90s at an import & domestic auto dealerships, and have been in a few modern engine bays as well.....it ain't (practically) happening as the norm. platinum plugs were introduced mainstream when they started speccing 100k tune up intervals in some cars and trucks. they don't foul as fast and yes, don't erode as fast. I run them in my old 2 strokes since they are in a much harsher environment than most other motors, and i get literally years out of them w out changing them. (they won't foul plugs if they are tuned correctly).
Of course they have to give a spec, but this is just brainfucking it to death on spark plugs. My point is, those who aren't familiar with doing this, this is instilling unnecessary fear into them putting in something as simple as a spark plug, and it's completely silly IMHO.
Do i use torque wrenches where it matters? absolutely. I have a very high end Desoutter DWT, a clicker 3/8 snap-on, a central tools in-lbs one and an old school beam style craftsman (for really big clunky stuff) I use all fairly regularly. So, it's not that I just hip-shoot everything.
To that point,when i worked at Desoutter/CP 10 yrs ago, we sold/installed/designed the nutrunners for installing the plugs in some engine plants. there was a seat torque (very low for just touching the crush washer) then a final ANGLE measurement for assembly at the engine plants. IF i remember correctly, the Nissan plant in Decherd, TN was running 10Nm then 260? degrees for final assembly. (or thereabouts). its been a while but that's just the reality of it. and of course, this was out of the car.
Is the info technically accurate up top? sure. But c'mon.
I don't think it's unnecessary fear since people who aren't familiar with it are exactly the ones most likely to tighten-until-loose or undertorque a spark plug causing heat dissipation issues or losing the plug. IMO best to learn to do it by the book, then go from there as you gain experience. The spark plug on the Honda Trail isn't buried, I find it a harder reach to come up with an excuse not to use a torque wrench than to dig one out of its case.
You have the experience to make your own judgement, others don't.
www.denso-technic.com
ngksparkplugs.com
You have the experience to make your own judgement, others don't.
Why it’s so important to get spark plug torque just right
Spark plugs play a critical role within the ignition system of petrol vehicles, with two main functions. One is to ignite combustion to start the engine and the other is to move heat away from the combustion chamber. While installing spark plugs should be a relatively straightforward task for...
www.denso-technic.com
Spark Plug Installation - NGK Spark Plugs
Torque is one of the most critical factors in spark plug installation. Learn more on our resource page.
ngksparkplugs.com
m in sc
Well-known member
I just think of this and chuckle.
Attachments
-
hot.jpg
I did a quick check and didn't find any unplated spark plugs on hand that would need anti-seize to give an example. The four plugs on the left are all motorcycle plugs. The carbon fouled one and the other big one next to it are Champions with their "TinTac and Ultraseal" shell. Smaller ones in the center are NGK with trivalent metal plating, one laser Iridium and one Honda Trail spare. The one on the far right is an automotive AutoLite plug with nickel plating.
Here's a stock image of an older version of that AutoLite plug from before they were plated, when they were coated in black oxide for corrosion resistance and best practice was to apply anti-seize. The black oxide coatings go back over 100 years, very common to find it on new old stock spark plugs for vintage cars and motorcycles.
Here's an older NGK technical service bulletin on anti-seize:
Here's a stock image of an older version of that AutoLite plug from before they were plated, when they were coated in black oxide for corrosion resistance and best practice was to apply anti-seize. The black oxide coatings go back over 100 years, very common to find it on new old stock spark plugs for vintage cars and motorcycles.
Here's an older NGK technical service bulletin on anti-seize:
MisterB
Active member
Click, Beam, or Digital?
If you don't obsess over fasteners, have never broken a bolt, stripped some threads, Heli-coiled threads, re-tapped or chased threads, removed a broken off bolt, or just don't feel confident then there are worse ways to spend your money than a torque wrench.
Those little digital jobs that go between your ratchet and socket are affordable and could help a young mechanic get a feel for their tools. See how easy it is to double your strength with a breaker bar, etc.
I tell my kids and operators at work: fasteners seem simple but the whole project gets put on hold if you mess one up.
These are just some golden rules, of course there will be exceptions!
*If it comes out easy it should go in easy (unless you drop the bolt and ding the starting thread)
*Never start a fastener with a power tool (some people swear by it, I'll waste the time starting by hand)
*Get all the screws started in an assembly before tightening any
*If in doubt, turn the screw backwards until you feel it click into the threads. Works with plastic and wood also.
*Don't expect to be able to change a flat car tire on the side of the road if you had your tires installed by someone else. Some folks run those air impacts wide open.
Sorry to go on, fasteners are, and have been, a huge part of my life and I love them. Always something new to learn about them, whether it's old wisdom or new technology.
After saying all that I should confess that I rarely use a torque wrench unless it is a critical application. Put tapered bearings in the Gold Wing steering head and reinstalled with the value that the experts recommend. Definitely critical cuz it's not just holding some part on.
May get one of those digital adapters so see if I'm losing my touch. I'm not getting any stronger so everything is probably under-torqued!
Last edited:
m in sc
Well-known member
all that plug bulletin tells me is some people should just pay others to do the work and walk away from the tools.
also, autolite plugs are still available in back oxide, my i6 ford still takes them, and you can bet i use anti seize on the threads, as shown above. Its 62 years old and never had a stripped plug hole or broken plug. it also doesn't have a crush washer, which its apparent most people don't understand how to deal with crush washers, especially ones that have been used once before.
also, autolite plugs are still available in back oxide, my i6 ford still takes them, and you can bet i use anti seize on the threads, as shown above. Its 62 years old and never had a stripped plug hole or broken plug. it also doesn't have a crush washer, which its apparent most people don't understand how to deal with crush washers, especially ones that have been used once before.
Kev250R
Well-known member
My experience with Spark Plugs...
I don't use a Torque Wrench either. I don't have a problem with those who do but for me I have a pretty good feel for how tight they need to be and haven't had a problem, except with the air-cooled engine in my VW 'Buggy.
A few years ago I had an engine-building friend build me a decent engine for my 'Buggy (VW-Based, Dual-Port 1,776, full-flow case for the VW Geeks in the room). It ran great but almost always fouled the #2 Plug. Sometimes within less then 100 miles of installing a new one. On a week-long trip to Moab I changed that plug almost daily.
Fearing something was tragically wrong with my new engine I went back to my friends shop to have him take a look at it. He checked it over (this is an Old School German Mechanic who has been building air-cooled VW engines for decades). He put a new set of plugs in the engine and when he went to seat them he went tight...really, really tight! I questioned him and he told me, "They call it a 'Crush Washer' for a reason!" That was ~10 years ago and I've not fouled a plug since.
YMMV
I don't use a Torque Wrench either. I don't have a problem with those who do but for me I have a pretty good feel for how tight they need to be and haven't had a problem, except with the air-cooled engine in my VW 'Buggy.
A few years ago I had an engine-building friend build me a decent engine for my 'Buggy (VW-Based, Dual-Port 1,776, full-flow case for the VW Geeks in the room). It ran great but almost always fouled the #2 Plug. Sometimes within less then 100 miles of installing a new one. On a week-long trip to Moab I changed that plug almost daily.
Fearing something was tragically wrong with my new engine I went back to my friends shop to have him take a look at it. He checked it over (this is an Old School German Mechanic who has been building air-cooled VW engines for decades). He put a new set of plugs in the engine and when he went to seat them he went tight...really, really tight! I questioned him and he told me, "They call it a 'Crush Washer' for a reason!" That was ~10 years ago and I've not fouled a plug since.
YMMV
Last edited:
I would like to add my shadetree experience for science purposes
Im on my 3rd BBK due to heat failure. I doubt it was because i didn't use a torque wrench but im no expert. All the builds went fine, no weird rattles or vibrations. Its survived 100 degree weather with high humidity with the 170 injector. I DID however snap one of the head bolts (not one of the 4 studs with the nut caps) on my 2nd rebuild because i kept cranking it. Those apparently never feel tight before they stretch and pop. I can however confirm you will be fine with just one of those. I assume with their low torque value those are just to keep the cam chain tunnel sealed.
Anyway using a torque wrench may be best practice but not using one will give you more practice
Im on my 3rd BBK due to heat failure. I doubt it was because i didn't use a torque wrench but im no expert. All the builds went fine, no weird rattles or vibrations. Its survived 100 degree weather with high humidity with the 170 injector. I DID however snap one of the head bolts (not one of the 4 studs with the nut caps) on my 2nd rebuild because i kept cranking it. Those apparently never feel tight before they stretch and pop. I can however confirm you will be fine with just one of those. I assume with their low torque value those are just to keep the cam chain tunnel sealed.
Anyway using a torque wrench may be best practice but not using one will give you more practice