What is different in the 2023 motor?

[m in sc]

Its not forced regulation on HP vs sound causing the detune, its a makers choice. my friend bought a new H2 earlier this year, its quiet but def not lacking in performance. I know, i was the 1st one to ride it off the trailer when we went and got it.
Its the mfgs running it by spreadsheets and knowing that the public will take whatever they give them. that's my point. the trail is mechanically more than capable of doing 70 mph stock with a different tune AND meeting emissions, they just chose not to do it.

 

[oldskool]

Its not forced regulation on HP vs sound causing the detune, its a makers choice. my friend bought a new H2 earlier this year, its quiet but def not lacking in performance. I know, i was the 1st one to ride it off the trailer when we went and got it.
Its the mfgs running it by spreadsheets and knowing that the public will take whatever they give them. that's my point. the trail is mechanically more than capable of doing 70 mph stock with a different tune AND meeting emissions, they just chose not to do it.

So they are hobbling the ct so it doesn't bite into the market of the next power level of bikes? Why can't someone come up with a tuner?

 

[m in sc]

in my opinion yes, they def detune it. NOT unusual for honda over-all. There are tuners out there, they are expensive, and as far as a flashed ecm, not enough demand like there is/was for the grom, etc. Lot of people are happy farting around on these at 35 mph the demand just isnt there, yet.

 

[dmonkey]

The Ninja H2 makes enough power that few people care, but it is also detuned and rev restricted for emissions. Plenty of info about those restrictions and bypassing them is documented online from Guhl Motors diving into the ECU.

I doubt anyone at Honda was happy about leaving ~7 hp off the Transalp knowing how much competition it faces, but apparently they decided on that. The alternative may have been a cartoonishly large exhaust.

 

[Fishwishin]

in my opinion yes, they def detune it. NOT unusual for honda over-all. There are tuners out there, they are expensive, and as far as a flashed ecm, not enough demand like there is/was for the grom, etc. Lot of people are happy farting around on these at 35 mph the demand just isnt there, yet.

Well, count me in for the demand category!

 

[m in sc]

know why? so they can upsell you on the next model. thats why . period. guhl also isn't allowed to reflash ecms anymore. the only difference is the timing map and where the secondary butterfly percentages open. has fuckall to do with emissions except for the h2r at 315 hp. 1st hand experience, there's another shop that tunes them and even remapped will hit the emissions requirements. my cb1100 has a guhl tuned ecm, and a power commander 6. the guhl tune was overly rich, with the target afrs for max power on the pc6 maped per gear it still burns clean, again, direct experience. a lot of remap guys will overly richer stuff to make it idiot proof, and I get that, but a skilled tuner, per bike, will make hp and run clean

 

[dmonkey]

Right, so it has nothing to do with emissions that they implemented those restrictions on the model that is EPA certified for on-highway use... The reality is that emissions restrictions, especially for noise, are actually restrictions at some point and manufacturers can't tune their way around them without restricting performance.

 

[m in sc]

sure they can. they just don't. its pretty simple. 700 hp v8 production cars can pass emissions as well.

 

[oldskool]

sure they can. they just don't. its pretty simple. 700 hp v8 production cars can pass emissions as well.

At what cost?

 

[dmonkey]

What changes would you make to the tune of something like a Transalp so it's as quiet at 9,500 rpm as at 8,500 rpm while still making the same power? I imagine American Honda would benefit from that answer. It's not a problem to tune around, it's something to be designed around. I'm sure most brands would like being able to get their "Race" models EPA certified for on-highway use to get more sales on their top spec motorcycles, and so those models would qualify as homologated for superstock racing. Harley-Davidson sold "Super Tuners" that let owners reflash their bike's ECM to remove the restrictions of the EPA approved tune and unlock more performance from stock engines, didn't turn out well for them. Now they sell the Pro Street Tuner that will only make EPA approved adjustments to the ECM, which doesn't net any noteworthy performance gain on a stock bike.

Cars have different emission requirements, but you'll still find many detuned to meet emissions.

Back to the point, Honda dropped the carb from the Cub lineage engines in other countries long ago for emissions. Sure a carb'd 125cc can still pass EPA and CARB requirements, but Honda's mini motos are sold in markets with more strict emissions in place now and planned for the future. With the new Euro5 125cc engine they've also taken advantage of consolidating many parts between their 110cc and 125cc engines which is surely a massive cost savings.

 

[m in sc]

you're totally missing the point. they can, and it really doesn't cost more to produce. however, most of the public doesn't care. and they will take whatever they produce for the most part. even with dismal performance.. like ta da: the trail. there is zero reason why it doesn't perform better, except by a board room decision. and it had fuckall to do with emissions, that's what they tell the public. the supercub is a better performer, as is the grom with the same basic architecture. is it a cost savings overall to homologate a platform with different performance levels? absolutely. mvi has been doing it for the past 60 years. maybe I'm the only one in this discussion that's sat in a boardroom during marketing meetings. . efi is mandated by law in some areas, but its not based on data, but as a mandate it has to be efi. if ktm can get a 300cc 2 stroke to pass euro4 what.. 8 years ago? then yeah. I'm pretty sure honda can get a 4 stroke to pass euro 5 .I've made my point, believe the press releases explanations (corporate excuses to justify), but take them with a grain of salt

 

[AZ7000']

I think it’s funny that when ktm went tpi on their two strokes for euro emission Regs that all the US riders were on the waiting list as soon as they could! The tpi doesn’t run as well, better mileage maybe but not the power/rideability of the carbed bikes. Merican thought was new is better. I spent a few hours with a ktm factory wrench from Austria in Baja at the 1000 this year and he confirmed the switch was for emissions and the carbed bikes Can be tuned to run better.

The ktm guys I know are a new bike every 2/3 years and they love it!!!

 

[m in sc]

that doesn't surprise me. but still, a 2 stroke. 4 strokes are wayyyyy eassier, i just used that as an example. and that tech is many years old now.