Manual Clutch Conversion?

[m in sc]

Im trying to figure out how the motogaga clutch stopper actually would grab the sleeve/gear that turns the big clutch. I've reached out for an answer. I'm not seeing how it would work TBH. however, the stock parts are all pretty cheap (like 70 bucks), might be easier to get a spare setup and weld it. that way it could be reverted.

 

[m in sc]

So, i tracked down the right part, and cant buy it directly, but have been messaging motogaga about their clutch stopper (which IMHO wont work) and they sourced the one that will.

since the espada one will work for the later wave125, (not the one in the pic but similar), and the wave and the ct use the same exact parts in the auto clutch and gear drive, this should be a winner. I ordered it, it should be on its way in a week or so, then probably another 2-4 weeks to get here. total cost was 81 bucks shipped.

If you like your auto clutch.. sweet. Me? I'm bored with it.

so, a side benefit, is that if this works, you can then upgrade to a takegawa side cover w the canister filter and oil ports. the only thing i really need to -modify- on the grom cover is the hole for the kickstarter as its blanked off and i plan on keeping it. the upside is, for those that care, is that the clutch stopper/shaft w gear is the ONLY non oem part i have to use.

 

[CTExplorer]

So, i tracked down the right part, and cant buy it directly, but have been messaging motogaga about their clutch stopper (which IMHO wont work) and they sourced the one that will.

since the espada one will work for the later wave125, (not the one in the pic but similar), and the wave and the ct use the same exact parts in the auto clutch and gear drive, this should be a winner. I ordered it, it should be on its way in a week or so, then probably another 2-4 weeks to get here. total cost was 81 bucks shipped.

If you like your auto clutch.. sweet. Me? I'm bored with it.

so, a side benefit, is that if this works, you can then upgrade to a takegawa side cover w the canister filter and oil ports. the only thing i really need to -modify- on the grom cover is the hole for the kickstarter as its blanked off and i plan on keeping it. the upside is, for those that care, is that the clutch stopper/shaft w gear is the ONLY non oem part i have to use.

Definitely subscribed to this. IMO this mod may reduce the shortcomings of this bike greatly. The ability to rev and engage the clutch seems like it would eliminate the issue of not being able to start on the real tough inclines (like the SGR guy had on the TAT mountain passes), as well as maybe allow it to maintain top speeds better by reducing all the parasitic weight at the flywheel of all the semi auto clutch components. Probably will increase mileage as well. Please update if you wind up figuring this out and all your great info on this board from your experience in the Grom world.

 

[AlaskanTrail]

 

[dmonkey]

Definitely subscribed to this. IMO this mod may reduce the shortcomings of this bike greatly. The ability to rev and engage the clutch seems like it would eliminate the issue of not being able to start on the real tough inclines (like the SGR guy had on the TAT mountain passes), as well as maybe allow it to maintain top speeds better by reducing all the parasitic weight at the flywheel of all the semi auto clutch components. Probably will increase mileage as well. Please update if you wind up figuring this out and all your great info on this board from your experience in the Grom world.

I ride my Trail in the Rockies and when it's too steep for the power of the bike a manual clutch wouldn't save it, you either get a good run-up, dog paddle the bike up with your feet, or dismount and walk it up under its own power. The last resort of walking it up is more convenient with the semi-auto trans and practically no risk of stalling it, same with casing it riding over logs. If you're going to convert it do it because you prefer the control of a manual clutch. Expect that there are always going to be trade-offs, but don't expect it to make the bike go significantly faster - the Super Cub and Wave 125i both go faster than the Trail with the same semi-auto trans. Differences are elsewhere (tune, gearing, weight, aerodynamics, tires).

 

[m in sc]

why? my auto clutch was def beginning to slip a bit. that's a big reason. another is, after over 2 years of riding it, i still miss having a clutch, still reach for it. I just prefer it. Its def not a gain in speed for me on this mod.

 

[dmonkey]

Takegawa announced a hydraulic hand clutch conversion for the new 2023+ (JA65) CT125 at the Tokyo Motorcycle Show, for release in June. No mention of compatibility with the prior generation CT125 sold in the USA (JA55) though and it's just for the shift clutch, does not eliminate the one-way centrifugal clutch like you'd want for increased control at low RPM. It uses the shifter clutch adjusting bolt hole, so a new crankcase cover is not needed. Kinda interesting setup, could probably work a hydraulic clutch on the CT125 easily with just your pinkie finger.

CT125にクラッチレバーが！ ダックスやクロスカブにも対応するマニュアルクラッチキットをSP武川が発売【モーターサイクルショー2023】 - Webikeプラス

左手のクラッチ操作が不要のカブシリーズの一台として、高い人気を誇るCT125ハンターカブをマニュアルクラッチ化するキットが登場した。スペシャルパーツ武川（SP武川）がCT125のクラッチ変更キットを開発し、東京モーターサイクルショーで初公開

news.webike.net

 

[m in sc]

i thought about a hydraulic clutch conversion, would actually be super easy on the existing cover with some mods and fab... but like you said doesn't eliminate the auto clutch. ive done a few hyd clutch conversions in the past from scratch, they have their ups and downs.

 

[m in sc]

Prat to bypass auto clutch finally shipping next week, Monday they say. figured id go ahead and prep the stock grom cover i had to use on the trail. all off my old '14. had to bore out hole to 16mm to take kick shaft, and open up the boss to take the oil seal. oil seal is trail126 part, rest is oem grom stuff.

you can see here i had it -slightly - off center on the initial shaft cut here, but caught it in time. thats a .25mm lip. luckily only a few mm down so no negative effect.

painted and ready

taped off oil seal area, had plug in clutch actuator shaft hole and taped off dipstick section.

together. had to bend out cable retainer and twist it a bit so it will clear the trail body work. I dry fit the cable no issues functionally.

paint i used for the cover.

I understand not everyone has a mill in the garage, so i would recommend getting the one cover online as its already setup like this. Me? i just wanted to see if i could do it, and i had no other use for a stock grom cover, its been laying around for years.

 

[xander450]

I'm really glad to see y'all breaking this ground here. I got here searching this problem - I love the bike, but I can't stand the auto clutch. Really stoked to see how this goes.

On an unrelated subject, m in sc, I remember you from the RD/TZ forums. Glad to see you over here.

Alex

 

[m in sc]

They sent me a shipping tracker, so hopefully it arrives soon.

I'll def document the install, not planning on it being too difficult, at all.

@ xander, thanks. still very active on the 2 stroke front as well. my forum is here: https://www.2strokeworld.net/forum/index.php

 

[m in sc]

Update: the one part i'm waiting on finally made it stateside yesterday and cleared customs in L.A.. Hopefully i'll have it within the week or so.

 

[Shoot870p]

You have a bunch of people watching and waiting!

 

[dmonkey]

Wayne @ The Speed Shop just shared a video talking about doing the opposite of this which is interesting, converting the Grom or Monkey to be semi-automatic. Sacrilege for many I'm sure, more convenient and accessible (especially with disabilities or injuries) for others.

I love the look of the Z50 tribute modern Monkey.

 

[m in sc]

Ive seen a LOT of disabled riders riding a manual transmission bike. Lots. Some guys even racing them, so, whatever. No desire to convert one, maybe that should be another thread to the accolades of an automatic. This isn't it, as it wasn't my intent to start a debate on the pros and cons of an automatic in this thread, it was about manual clutch conversions.

To all those that want to do the manual conversion: find a grom motor & swap it. LOL. I got the parts today, It was a TON of work, and i'll be honest, as i told Angie, if i knew how much i would have had to change to actually get it to function, I might have rethought it.
that being said, I got it done. I have pictures and a lot of detailed explanation i might write up tomorrow . The kit from motogaga (the clutch stopper) will NOT do what you want it to do as far as i can tell. the oiling path is affected, and was with the wave 125 conversion part i ordered as well, and its just an absolute shit ton of time consuming work arounds, BUT, Im glad i did it, it was a very interesting project to say the least from a fabrication/engineering standpoint.

IF you want just a manual clutch to feather while riding, and to retain the auto clutch, would be MUCH easier and the motogaga cover and cable set will do that. I wanted full manual, and therein was the challenge. But its done. I spent about 6 hours doing the whole project. the only thing left i need to do its move and reoute the clutch cable at the motor.

Ironically, the most time consuming part was getting the clutch nut off, the factory had that nut on way, way too tight. (yes i have the correct socket).

 

[dmonkey]

What's more interesting, but not in that video, is that he's also done several semi-auto to manual swaps. Avoiding the conversion kit issues by swapping to an OEM or aftermarket crank meant for the manual bikes, and then carrying Grom or Monkey parts over to the Trails and Super Cubs. Still a lot of work at that point, but less issues dealing with the less common semi-auto bike aftermarket parts.

 

[m in sc]

as far as i know the crank on this wont swap, or at least what ive heard. also,t he clutch stack height is different, so that was also an issue. i had to actually space OUT the bearing for the clutch actuator to engage on the pressure plate. I hybrided a stock grom clutch, trail clutch and an aftermarket one to get it all to fit. a grom clutch basket will hit the spinner or the auto clutch bell, so it has to be shorter.

left is stock ct125 clutch, right is aftermarket grom/moneky clutch assembly

these is the part that i was waiting on, the lef is the stock auto clutch bell and shaft, right is the aftermarket solid 'clutch stopper one. note the offset ger? i think that there to reduce gear hine as it spsring loaded and will rotate where it lines up but with a slight load on it. it fits but there was an issue w the other side.....

the aftermarket spinner isnt as deep as the cluthc assembly, so the end part of the crankshaft which si where the side 'outlet hole for the spinner cavity on the stock unit isnt covered w the new part. the oil comes thru the crank, out the little hole close to the motor (actually 2), intot he spinner, then back INthrut he 2 smaller holes that are now exposed. the inner part is closed so it cant go straight thru. i had to lathe up a small sleeve to fit inside the crank, and drilled the end of the crank blockage betweent hese 2 sets of holes to allow the oil to pass thru, or the top end would be starved. I made it a press fit and used sleeving loctite, the ID of the hole i drilled is 3mm, way bigger than it needs.

what this does is not allow the oil to escape through the 2 outlet holes past the threads, and instead straight thru to the bering and oil port in the cover.

this is def NOT something i expected to deal with.

i missed taking pics but this is it all put together. i need to make a new cable mount and move it INBOARD of the bodywork, but it def works and feels good, havent test ridden it yet, and I'm waiting on a other Cosmetic cover (going to use one off a supercub).

fwiw, i did spray thru the drilled port on the crank out to clear any swarf, and when i ran it i pulled the top intake valve cover to verify it was getting plenty of oil up there while it was running.

like said, not a mod for the faint of heart, it was a lot.

 

[dmonkey]

Wayne says he's swapped the cranks both ways, semi-auto crank into manual bike and manual crank into semi-auto bike, not sure which all parts need to go with it other than that the clutch assembly does. I assume it's a lot where depending on what other parts you're changing (forged crank, upgrading clutch and pressure plate) and what the goal is, might be a better option to engine swap, but still seems like an easier option than the unexpected issues you've encountered with the conversion.

Keep us posted, interested to hear how the first ride goes.

 

[m in sc]

no way is a crank swap 'easier' or less time consuming. whole motor swap? sure. easier by far, but also vastly more expensive. i have 80 bucks in the adapter part, maybe 60 bucks with the new cable, clutch perch, lever, etc. (all oem grom stuff) , 1 qt of oil and 29 bucks for the aftermarket clutch parts setup. so, just under 200 total. you cant find a good grom motor that cheap anywhere.

its ok, i like challenging mechanical issues and actually doing it 'this way or that' 1st hand, instead of watching it on youtube and assuming somebody is doing it right and didn't leave a step out.

And now everyone knows what to expect if they attempt this with a stock motor. as said, i would suggest a motor swap if looking for a clutch swap, OR, if you're feeling really ghetto, just mig weld the auto-clutch to the bell on the crank end. saw lots of overseas pics of that. and yes, you could def swap as he said in the video, the stuff all the way over from the cub and trail to the grom, but not the other way. and there's the rub...

Here's why, there's no large keyway to drive the clutch (output or primary) gear on the trail crank, but there is on the grom one. on the grom crank, you just remove it. On the trail and cub, and wave 125,. that keyways isn't there so its driven off the shaft end w the splines on one paice which is part of the spinner, whereas its 2 pcs on the grom etc.. see, that wasn't mentioned. so, you would have to swap the whole crank over to go manual in a trail or cub.

grom crank. note the larger keyway (and slot, since its NOT on the trail crank) for the output gear that's missing w the trail crank. (part 7 & 10)

trail crank. little gear is for the oil pump. no large driven gear.

now you can see why i did what i did.




as a side note, this is all completely reversible, I can swap the drilled oil insert out with a solid short plug and put it all back dead stock if i want to. that, IMHO, is the right way to do a mod. the only destructive mod ive done on my bike is the airbox runner mod, and thats easily rectified w a patch plate i made at the time to allow it to be reversed. heck, i even saved the stock catalytic converter mess w the stock exhaust which will NEVER be welded back in, but, it could.

 

[dmonkey]

Crank swap could be easier than what you've done for someone doing it without a mill or lathe. Or if you were building a Kitaco Neo and looking to use the forged crank from the kit and have a manual clutch you'd be part way there just swapping parts and not needing to do any machining. Obviously that's not the criteria of your conversion though, cool to see it done on a budget and appreciate seeing what's involved in going the route that you took.